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PLEASE CONTACT THE DATA CAPTURE AGENCY NAMED IN THIS HEADER FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. 1994-11-27 See the project description in the corpus header for information about the British National Corpus project. 1992-07-15: Tyne & Wear: Newcastle Laing gallery Picture appreciation Public Meeting S speech unscripted visual The pictures of Gaugin 2000-12-13edOUCSLast check for BNC World first release2000-09-01edOUCSCheck all tagcounts2000-06-23edOUCSResequenced s-units and added headers2000-05-31edUCRELCorrected inadvertent truncations2000-01-29edOUCSRevised participant details2000-01-21edOUCSAdded date info2000-01-09edOUCSUpdated all catrefs2000-01-09edOUCSUpdated REC elements to include tape number2000-01-08edOUCSUpdated titles1999-12-25edOUCScorrected tagUsage20th September 1999edUCREL, University of LancasterPOS codes revised for BNC-2; header updated1994-11-27eddominicInitial accession to corpus I'm sorry that I was unable to get, well two things went wrong first of all the date of the exhibition's changed Gaugin and his friends in Brittany, due to circumstances beyond our control. But in this programme you'll appreciate this planned months, its planned, when did I first contact you?, oh February wasn't it, right, so we thought we'd have pictures here and Sue would be talking in front of the pictures. I didn't know at that time what the content of the exhibition was because Sarah who organised it all had to write to lots of people and arrange the loans and you know it is fairly recently that we discovered for example the tate would lend, their pictures because its very rare that they do, erm, and, so we thought the next best thing, when I discovered the change of dates would be to have slides of the pictures that Sue was using, but erm oh dear then wonderful that Sue was using a another book and this term allocated and I wasn't able to get the slides she picked, it was my fault that they're not on slide due to the amount of time that we had to do this. Therefore I'm afraid were going to have to pass Sue's book around , we'll leave the lights on and erm she's changed the scripture of her talks so that she will be describing the picture why'll its been passed round and could you please sort of pass it fairly quickly, I'll be at the back and then I'll come down into the front again, is there anyone who's a poet? I know I enter the poem when there is one not every picture has its some of these kinds telling you about how they write a poem, if I was going to Right but erm, we'll, we'll spend start the whole questions again when we get to the next one and we do have, some of this slides which, I'll show at the very end, alright, but it means it er, erm, the first part of the talk we'll keep the lights on and then could I ask you, you know to look and then pass it around like school nobody looks back and I rush oh yeah right I'm pleased pleased to introduce to us, er, er against all these difficulties and the nearer you are at the front the better, there's all stuff here look I'm sitting at the back anybody at the back would like to move nearer then sit here yes, ok, is that alright? Well I think I'll start off by telling you a little bit about myself erm, I'm a writer and I live in Durham, my work is here and I've also work abroad, if anybody can't hear me please say No you can't hear me, right, ok, I'll try and speak up a little bit louder, erm my work, I work erm here and I work abroad and I live in Durham, er I'm a writer and erm one of the things that I'm most interested in is using art as an inspiration for my work as a, as a writer and I'd like to be able to show you by this talk, how I do that, erm, I have a few publications, my work's performed by a local group actually based in Newcastle and I'm a member of er a group called Another Story and my work's been put to music by a composer and er a play and the play and sing that, that the pieces of erm another area of my work is as I er writing workshops, the writing workshops are very different from the normal writing workshops there based at galleries and they take groups of people round an exhibition recording their comments on either one particular picture or the exhibition as a whole and then with my help we put the comments into poems that are then displayed along side the exhibits, erm this work I do with erm all sorts of people with children people with special needs, disabled people and, and that's really where my interest in art erm comes in and I find that its a great leveller for people who would like to express themselves and have perhaps have difficulty by aiding, by looking at paintings and being able to see perhaps emotions or images that they, they feel themselves, so in all areas erm I find painting in my areas of work, painting influences me and has done for as, as long as I can remember. Sometimes erm given me the questions and sometimes answering the questions for me, its always informing me and over the last few years I've erm, I said that to try and understand erm, how to use this information in my own work as, as a writer, and I see, I see parallels in all forms of art, communication is of course one, erm and the need to recognise and respond the plight of others is, is another area and the area that as a writer I'm particularly drawn too. Physically and erm emotionally writing can be very isolating and so, for example a few years ago, I was writing a huge piece on Africa about Africa and I found emotions growing that I actually didn't have names for, erm and it made it impossible to finish the piece I was working on, and then I, I went to see an Afro Asian exhibition of art and I saw portraying some of these paintings the same emotions and it, it didn't give me a name for the emotions but it, it made me feel an awful lot less isolated seeing that erm other people have also, have also felt this. So I was going to rummage through these slides and we don't have them, erm so I'll have to, I'll hand the, the, the book around in just one minute, erm the poems that I'm going to read to you, very few of them are actually complete, most of them are sketches erm ideas and images of erm, that I've got, I've, I've got them from the paintings. Sometimes when I, I write a poem I want to create a particular mood erm giving the piece erm a shape, a, a definite shape or just a shadowy shape erm and the overcoat in er Bon Jour Monsieur Gaugin, I found very, very expressive and the starting point for, for this particular poem I'll hand this round to you know, with the name of the, the front, right I don't, has anybody, if you already know this picture, does anybody actually know it already?, no I start with the overcoat obviously erm very expressive, not just because it was, people wear over , overcoats in cold days, but it was the size of the coat and the shape of it and, and it gave me a weight, I felt, er I felt a very definite mood erm about this picture because of the coat and it was a, er a ejective mood that I, that I felt from that, and the stick in the erm hands of the women over the bridge gave me the sound for, for this poem would you like me to read as the, the thing being passed around, would that be ok? Yes ok, this poem's called erm A Pause In A Moment Worn out days dressed in damp wheat, heavy coat pulling at tired shoulders, memory pushed back, brought forward in the click of a stick, pause in a moment, sunset reflected in eyes offering the warmth of recognition , so that poem started with the overcoat and that was the mood as I say, that was the mood of rejection erm and there was something about the way the old girl was looking at the women on the bridge, almost as if there was this recognition and, as it brought back memories that perhaps went or as black as the overcoat, erm the next er painting which I'm going to read to you about is erm have you its the Four Brettan Girls and does it, do any of you know, I'm sure most of you, some of you have heard that erm when I was looking at this, this picture of the, of the Brettan Girls, I erm, I was really particularly struck by the bo , the mild head of one of the dancers and the fact that she was rubbing her, her heal, erm and it gave me a voice for, for this poem, I was also drawn by the dismissal, there's a goose in the painting, there's four, four geese and one of them is dismissing the, the, the winner outright and erm I found his look very, very interesting and, and I couldn't help but compare the lies of these four dancers with those within erm from the later period as the eye that, that, that Gaugin painted later on. This, this poem's called Dancing Feet Time found hidden in a hard day, dry earth becomes a dance floor, audience of three fowl, the fourth along with a reaper turns it back, wooden shoes meant for mud, rug on dancing feet erm and, if you, if you take, were oops trying to pay particular attention to, if you can see the geese in, in this one here, there's a fate, there's a, there's a forfeit which is missing, what's going on and er, and the reason well in fact er which, which was er very much a vocal point for me in, in that painting I think its got to be better if I hold it different. It is, but then you won't be able to compare the, the details against the Well could you, we pass it round twice? Yes, yes, you could pass it round twice, that's ok with everybody Yes Erm, how shall we do that?, as its going, read it again now? Yes Ok, Time found hidden in a hard day, dry earth becomes a dance floor, audience of three fowl, the fourth along with a reaper turns it back, wooden shoes meant for mud, rug on dancing feet Erm the next one is the still life on, on with three puppies, while I was looking at Gaugin's work I couldn't help but notice he's constantly struck by the fact that he use set of three symbols through out his work it seems, and very, very often three caricatures erm or lines of three or three objects and I found this very interesting, more point of view that something that I, I wanted to incorporate in my own work, but I wanted to find a line or a phrase to use in the same way, erm, all of my work starts as one or a series of visual images and, and I then turn them into characters, repeating a word or repeating a line would be a way of erm emphasising characterise erm and the puppies that are in this painting erm, they delighted my children so much, I don't know if any of you know, do you know the painting of the three puppies its going to come round at you in a minute, so I'll talk about it until it gets to you, erm, it delighted my children this particular painting, erm and I decided to put my sort of analytical approach to one side erm and do something with that later, so this poem is from my, my children's point of view and one of the things that are very interested, they were really worried, that, erm, I think it marks the height of the table and the fact that the puppies might fall off and do themselves some harm, that, I'll read it while its going round and then I can see then, that, so this is, ok, from my children's point of view this poem, its called Threes, Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblet, made from clay . There's something else the children were convinced that the goblets weren't actually clay, the goblets that were on the erm, the table as opposed to would you like me to read that poem again?, would that be helpful?, right, we were with the, of the erm, the picture, Threes, Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblet, made from clay . The next one is erm Van Gogh's sun flowers, that's it, that one, its erm, well its Gaugin, Van Gogh's sun flowers ok, I'll talk as its going round again, if that's alright with is that alright? Erm, putting images into words is not always easy, a colour in a painting can give you a way in and the brown of Van Gogh's jacket erm affected me with this one particularly and the sun flower I felt was inappropriate misplace, in a vase to, to small, erm and it gave me an image a very strong image of suffering and this poem is in its very early stages and its literally just a list of images and I wanted to be able to show you how I start off which is with a series of images and then I have to put some filler in and open them up a bit and, and make them more accessible and understandable, but this is just a list form. Sun flower limping, water less vase, suffering eyes, desperados in caged , so from, from that painting I had a tremendous feel of something undergoing tremendous suffering and seem very desperate about the situation, and I didn't just see that in, in the picture of Van Gogh, but I could see that in the sun flower, so as, as a writer its images like that, that I would look for and open up and turn into characters or a way of portraying a particular mood, erm, the next one , were doing very well Its exhausting. I suppose this is erm, a caricature, a self portrait this little, I, in fact I was, really actually hilarious as I felt that, I, I, don't actually know an awful lot about Gaugin, but if, if I knew nothing about him at all, I would of thought he was having a bit of joke of himself with this, but er, being the person that he was I can't image that he had that quality, that, I don't believe he would be laughing at himself, erm, erm, the symbolism erm and conflict of this painting its dazzles me more than, than the colour or at least as much as the colours in it, but there's a, there's a half eaten, well it isn't half eaten, but there's half an apple at the top and, and that was the, the way into me finally, for, for writing about this, this again is a shopping list, I call it a shopping list, this is just visual images that, that will be opened out at some point and turn it into something, and my images were erm Shoulders of the matador smoking snakes, dare to bit an apple, see one half gone and still I wear a halo intact , that I'm sure I've completely wrong about him as a, a person, but as the painting that's obviously something else, erm, I found that one of the things that were he's, I, I think probably that everybody who writes is that you'll come to a point when you can't write, you stop writing, you haven't got anything you want to write about, or your frightened of writing, and I devise exercises so that, that doesn't happened to me, I think writing is like any skill you have to keep doing it to be able to do it, its, you, some of it is a game and the rest of it is hard work, and one of the exercises I, I delighted using erm a portrait of a woman erm, its about erm the er still life, its the back one, yes this one here, I have, I, I hope to use this as a writing exercise I found the, the maths in this and the colour of the piece of fruit in the background, very interesting because most of the colours to me seem a, a lot less vibrant then many of his other paintings, and so they, they attracted me and have a, a strong sense of erm, er a hidden desire in that and so it, to use it as a writing exercise which I intend doing, it will be able about a situation of character's with erm something that's hidden, some desire, I don't, the, not even spoke about to themselves or, or generally, erm I like to sort of say that came from those two little, just this amounts of colour which seemed to be saying such a lot anything I do if, erm while this is going round you have any questions, now would be, now would be a good time to ask them if you have any, there will be time at the end to talk, you can do Have you check to see if your well erm, sort of in that erm, I was asked to come and do this talk, and so I, I organise to make sure that I had access to some of Gaugin's work and then to write poems about it, erm, so, erm, only in as much as that it was a waiting to hear this talk, but a lot of my work is through commissions and so I find myself writing about things that I perhaps don't have any interest in particularly, erm, or I find actually in a waiting, asked to write about anything is quite er exciting and actually using my skill I think it should be, as a writer I should really be able to write about everything. One of the things I was asked to write about this week I think was a radio, to, to write about er what I felt about radios, you know, er, erm, so anything could be thrown at you, and obviously I have my areas that I particularly interested in and I think sometimes I get a bit complacement and I'm writing about a, I find particularly interested in and a bit lazy, so its quite good to be stretched. Erm, the next one, we'll shall go erm, go to market will do, yes that's right, no No you've got the wrong one , I was gonna say this is definitely not going to market Yes, no, she's not going to market This one, are you sure your not going to market This one, I, I, this is one of my favourites, I love this painting. The movement of this reminds me of er stage set and the figures on the bench could almost be actors and actresses and with the figure at the bottom here, the male at the bottom, well its not quite at bottom, tucked away at the side there, he, he, he looks like erm, like a harlequin figure, maybe a mischief maker, er I, I felt there was a lot of fun in this painting and a lot of erm, er gravado and, and stage specs, that kind of thing, so this poem is called for obvious reasons People Of The Nile, and I'll read it twice, probably be the best way Ancient people drawn on a vase, tell a tale, warn a friend, man dressed in red holds back a curtain, over hears and tells, they are gossiping people, playing Chinese whispers , so I, I, I quite wanted to give that er a, a contemporary updated feel, erm, I read that again for the people who may of just seen the picture at the back People Of The Nile, Ancient people drawn on a vase, tell a tale, warn a friend, man dressed in red holds back a curtain, over hears and tells, they are gossiping people, playing chinese whispers , erm, the next one , we'll have to put you on wheels I think Your this is erm, this is a bit like I went to an auction at erm Chesteny Street, and all the exhibits were brought out by hand, by, by the erm keeps watch, I'm sure this is a, this side of I in fact I've just been shown a different copy of this, Gwen has just shown me a different copy and the colour's is totally different, its a very, very poor erm print and, when I was looking at this through my book, the background was very strange and I felt that almost had been painted by a totally different artist, but having seen Gwin's, er Gwen's is much more of a go down in colour, erm so I think probably if I'd seen her, er prints I maybe I would of approached this erm differently, erm it gave me a very immense voice about crowds, erm, very, very different from the front of the picture apart from the alarm registered in the eyes of the, of the old woman erm, this is called Even Paradise Has Its End, sorry Even Paradise Has Its Price, sorry Ours in the night laying between sleep and arousal held in balance, fragile as dust on a scale, night spirit's sit easy, in no hurry, even paradise has its price , would you like me to read that one again? Yes. As I say all these poem's are very dense and erm if I get round to, to completing them they'll probably have at least another verse, certainly extra words and rhymes, that open it out and make it a bit more plausible Ours in the night , no I've got it wrong, sorry, I've moved on and I shouldn't've done That's it This is right, Ours in the night laying between sleep and arousal held in balance, fragile as dust on a scale, night spirits sit easy, in no hurry, even paradise has its price . The next one is not working, this one here erm the light framed split here erm falling on the ground is the curse of the, of the male's aunt People and animals portray in this, in the Tahiti painting, never seemed to be in a hurry, erm, even when always relaxed even when working and I wondered how much of this was cultural and erm, how much was due to the large amounts of erm drugs consumed in most paintings at this, this period but that I suppose I'll, I'll never know for sure about, erm with this painting I found in the background, er there's a figure, that's looking in on the situation and I, I for myself think's its probably Gaugin, as he portrays himself as Christ, which I think he did quite a lot to me in, in, in a few of his paintings and so this painting gave me tremendous sense of being looked in on and this figure in the background, was the person that was doing the looking in. This is called It Was Good In the afternoon when the sun half close his eyes, ants can be found not working, dogs in their cool places, vandal wall slice through heat, hold and let go of light in rays, in the afternoon when smoke curls like the back of a cat, people lean and braid hair, someone dressed like Christ looked in and said it was good . Would you like that one again , In the afternoon when the sun half close his eyes, ants can be found not working, dogs in their cool places, vandal wall slice through heat, hold and let go of light in rays, in the afternoon when smoke curls like the back of a cat, people lean and braid hair, someone dressed like Christ looked in and said it was good now we have the dug out how food is presented erm can say so much, at least it does to me and, so that, so that the beginning of this poem became from er the food, piece of food held in the hand of the mayor in this picture. Paintings erm have the power to take you back in time, I can look at a painting and remember something that's happened yesterday or years and years ago and as a small child, looking at this painting I remembered as a small child seeing for the first time erm the sea dipping into er, sorry the sun dipping into, into the sea and being horrified I was convinced that the heat of the sun would boil the oceans and the world dry and it reminded me for an awful lot of my childhood and I'm sure if I'd seen this painting years ago it would of persuaded me otherwise, erm this is called In A Days Work Satisfaction in a days work, chosen not given, eating the laxed food, face turned to steer a sun, making cloth into a gown and giving colour to the side of a boat What is it called again? In A Days Work, Satisfaction in a days work, chosen not given, eating the laxed food, face turned to steer a sun, making cloth into a gown and giving colour to the side of a boat erm we know come to a here comes the last er picture in my, in my talk this is erm, this is going to be exhibited here on the twenty third of July, ok, erm, two, two of Gaugin's pictures, this is one of them, and several other artists er of the same period, and I think this is going to be the only venue in, in England, I don't think there coming, sort of worth seeing, but unfortunately I shall miss it cos I'm, I won't be here, erm this is a poster of I find this very difficult to erm, to relate, to relate hard work to the women portraying in, in this, we've got the postcard of that one, erm it must of been hard work and very tedious, but I think every now and then the moment breaks away and shines through at the back, and I think people like, like Gaugin erm captures those moments and then releases them on the canvass, and I hope that erm by, I hope I've been able to show you how I use art as a voice erm and a friend as my own work, even though we've maybe had to do such a sort of hand fist way, hand fisted way, erm, but, I, I've recently started to re-visit old favourite of paintings and I found that the story they tell sometimes has changed dramatically, maybe sometimes when your very little that, that, you know, sometimes dramatically as well, erm, but I, mostly, most importantly its, its still, I still find them, all of them compelling and challenging and, and something to stride for in my own work, erm, er only time will tell so I'll finish with the, the last poem which is erm comes from the postcard what's going round which is harvest, its called Patterns In The Grass, Wheat cut and falls, making lion head patterns in the grass, sickle shaped women bend and bow as a naive dressed as a dog steals the evening meal . I'll read that again Wheat cut and falls, making lion head patterns in the grass, sickle shaped women bend and bow as a naive dressed as a dog steals the evening meal . thank you very much for being so its been very difficult for everybody and I do hope you've managed to, you get something out of, out of this talk, if you have any questions I'll be very happy to, try and answer them. I'd also like to er I attend, I've got a performance tomorrow night in Durham so if any of you want to come to that it would be very nice to see you , erm, if there are any questions please feel free to ask. Have you done many No I, its not my speciality, I have tried and I, I really can't, I can't cope with the discipline of it at all, it, it er ruins the activity that I have, I know some people, one, one woman I was on the course with, it wasn't you was it Phillip?, it was somebody, was it you who worked, no somebody else that er we were doing a course with who had a tremendous skill with high and said so much into the there's some woman I admire, but I can't think what her Is seem to focus in or, or in art, and you go for art by visual means, rather than say a piece of music and subject. I don't know, do you write Erm, yes I do, both, my, my husband is a composer and a musician and erm just recently you, well I'll show you, basically that, we exchanged skills and erm I interpretations of his music erm, I, one of the things I would love to do and I'm hoping to do next year is to do something related to art using a dance and words, I think with three mix, mix well actually, mix it with its exciting, but that's one thing I really would like to work with I was asking you cos I'm always having arguments with the I, I, myself, I can see it as well Yes and I think its I was just wondering what you very much the same its, the page is so important, yeah, very important and this is what I think myself, but lots of people yes, yes that's right yes, yes but I mean it depends also I suppose erm, when your aiming for is the market, and I, I, I would like to have my work published but I also like to perform it and its got to be attractive to be looked at, in the first instance in, on a page its not known, er, there is, there is a lot of debate at the moment about using erm pages for poetry and some poets have actually starting using, writing from the wrong side and, and, and, and writing in the shape of a poem, for instance, if, what poem I was thinking off was a, was a waterfall so it was cascading the words cascading, you almost have to pick, ha , ha , have a choice of, of words that you want to fit into a particular thing, erm I think that's had its place, but I think it can be a bit off putting as well, yeah, but it exciting, yeah definitely. Do you try any other Oh yes varied, and there interesting, with, with children, particularly if they erm if I'm doing workshops er with art and writing workshops and we come across an abstract picture, the children music, and, we , as a way into their vocabulary which isn't as large as their, their writing skills, and there'll, there'll decipher an abstract picture, wonderful language and I like doing that you know I'm thinking the abstract art Yes, yes express yes, oh yes, and erm, going back to somebody asked me earlier, erm, about how it, I feel I have to be able to write about, just about anything, erm, and so if I was given commission to write about any one thing I would have to put myself in a position to, to be able to do it. I think this idea of, of writers shutting themselves away and writing has gone, you know, very that is a luxury I think erm to be able to do it, if you want to write and earn money, which I do as well as, as socialize while I'm working erm you've got to find ways of, of, of doing that and erm just writing books and poetry just wouldn't, I, I, I couldn't survive on that, I really do have to find other ways of, of earning money which is enjoying more and also uses of my skill and erm I would think you'd need to be in contact with the situation rather than you not knowing, being able to write about that. Do you say whether you, identify the picture only on Erm, that was very er, er, I mean that, yes then they confront both of the the visual image and the written words I'm sorry what Do you identify the artist, do you Oh I see, yes, yes, I, huh, yes I would do, I, I, I would say in quite definitely that these words are inspired by such a such artist and, make it quite clear that I'm a writer and not a, I, I, I don't study art or I just don't understand science and painting and, and its my responses to that, yes. Just seems that it, it to me must be wrong, that it didn't identify them because a particular picture anyway, the reason why I find difficulty in making Absolutely, yes way for them the, this, this is just one aspect of, of my writing and I write about all sorts of things and erm, erm the shows that I do, we use two artists that's erm, I, I've written erm two, two poems about erm, er Darren and, and erm Stanley er you you've heard and erm, and I have assumed wrongly that most people will know the work of their and luckily that the, the song that we did was funny and so people enjoyed it, but they didn't understand it and they didn't have a visual image of the artist's work, so I now have to take erm a couple of pictures, er prints with me if ever were going to read it and we sing those songs but not everybody does, and then they do become excessible you know, they can see, you know, that erm, yes erm if it, if I was going to publish a book of poem I, it would have to be stated that this related to this picture and presumably it'd have to be, it would be with it, with it if anybody would be interested in doing. Does when you've finished the poem you read it out? Yes That's right, yes . That's right, yes it should, erm, these, these aren't completed, but even so the ones that we, we, I have done that too I've opened out, having performed them, you still need to have a little bit of an idea That's right of the artist yeah but as a, as a piece of work in it, yes that's right yes and I hope we, we did achieve that Yes erm because they enjoyed the, there are a few funny lines in it you know and they enjoy the, the visual amatory of these people performing it, but to themselves to actually understand it they need to know which artist it was, yeah and you know yeah, that's right yes. Do you think colours with emotions are Oh very much so, yes new devotion, size, erm, it, it in one or two of these erm they gave me a definite feel and to a, to a, it new I was trying to write I think Von Gogh was well yes absolutely yeah, and, and shapes I feel as well, you, you, particularly erm, and one of things that I did find in Gaugin's painting of Von Gogh was that erm, er, erm, depression really, I, I could see it there and the des desolation very much as if he was looking in on somebody who was in that position er, although at the time I don't thing Gaugin and, er Von Gogh himself knew it No I, I don't, I'm not an expert for poet, I, I, I feel about it, perhaps didn't Did you hope to show the slides that you've got?, I mean is Yes, would you like to see, there's about three . You need the lights off? Where's the light switch?, erm Do you not fear that if you, if there is and another, especially if your contracted with powerful paintings, that the approach you make suffer as the result of the artist's vision, or I think that we can and see each other and also my interpretation yes would be different from the reputation of, of the as I was holding on a particular images and create and then become those energy right rather than doing it direct, erm conscription of the painting right its my responses to it, that would be a very different approach, because of familiar with a, I mean with the postcard that was past around, familiar with that picture then looked at it one, I feel that about it. When your reading I closed my eyes and I got a different feeling Yes from your and I can visualise, something totally different But is that what it should be? Yes, that's what, yes that's what I hoped for because I, I feel everybody's interpretation yes is different, and you need an original yes and you maybe miss something, from this you have your own, that's right and its somebody else teaches you another angle then there's possibility for ex , ex , expanding possibility yes which I find exciting, but, but interesting in it. You seemed to take it with your poems Yeah, I, I do and I think I went down to most people to say they can't, but when you point out something to them, they say yes I can see that, look there's this as well and I think culturally er were led to believe if you don't succeed in it, erm but in actual fact I think that you all do, but perhaps I think the books do, either assess it and give it value or, or still allow it to happen Mm, somebody I feel it did, I strongly feel it, feel that, but I'm also sure that its an awful lot easier than, than most people think , but its not going to work for us is it? Its a shame we didn't have the slides, I think we'd see more Have you got the If you'd like to hold a torch for me I can its erm, I think Sue Yes, ok I'll just, I can, I can do it winding up So this is called A Pause In A Moment Worn out days, dressed in damp weeds, petticoat cling and tired shoulders, memory pushed back, brought forward in the click of the stick, pause in a moment, sunset reflected in eyes offering the warmth or recognition Threes Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblets, made from clay . Can I just point out that something here, erm, was, I think I mentioned about my children it was the height of the table and its just so little that, that they indicate their in height in this picture, but it is there and, erm, that, I found that really very exciting and as I say the, The Threes, it, the three goblets, the three apples the three puppies, so often I've, I've found that there is three sets of, three objects and in I haven't actually got a, a poem for this, I was saying to you that I would use this, I intend using this as a writing exercise, because the, the colour of her mouth and the colour of the piece of boot in the background, just stands out to me, it says, its about to me hidden desire of some sort, either the artist's or hers or mine I don't know So, none of those pictures would be in the exhibition that you have? No. But this is our picture which This is erm, yes I don't have a, I don't have I have got a poem for this, which we were, its been to Pam now that would be interesting Thank you very much you fascinate, battling against others. Thank you very much.