19 conversations recorded by `Margaret' (PS002) between 13 and 16 March 1992 with 9 interlocutors, totalling 3901 s-units, 42462 words, and 6 hours 28 minutes 0 seconds of recordings. Data capture and transcription Longman ELT BNC World Edition: Header automatically generated by mkhdr 0.31 Approximately 757 Kbytes running text, containing about 42462 orthographically-defined words; for encoding details see <tagUsage> element. Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury RoadOxford OX2 6NN U.K.Telephone: +44 1865 273221Facsimile: +44 1865 273275Internet mail: natcorp@oucs.ox.ac.uk
KB0 XAl002 THIS TEXT IS AVAILABLE WORLDWIDE only as part of the British National Corpus at nominal charge FOR ACADEMIC RESEARCH PURPOSES SUBJECT TO A SIGNED END USER LICENCE HAVING BEEN RECEIVED BY OXFORD UNIVERSITY COMPUTING SERVICES, from whom forms and supporting materials are available. THIS TEXT IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR COMMERCIAL RESEARCH AND EXPLOITATION unless terms have first been agreed with the BNC Consortium Exploitation Committee. Apply in the first instance to Oxford University Computing Services. It is your responsibility, as a user, to ensure that an End User Licence is in place. For your information, the Terms of the End User Licence are set out in the corpus header, which is likely to have a file name similar to "corphdr" or "CORPHDR". Distribution of any part of the corpus under the terms of the Licence must include a copy of the corpus header. Distribution of this corpus text under the terms of the Licence must include this header embodying this notice. THE EXACT CONDITIONS OF USE FOR THIS TEXT ARE NOT CURRENTLY KNOWN TO THE ARCHIVING AGENCY. PLEASE CONTACT THE DATA CAPTURE AGENCY NAMED IN THIS HEADER FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. 1994-11-27 See the project description in the corpus header for information about the British National Corpus project. 1992-03-16: Margaret60retiredLancashireEna50farmer's wifeWelshPhilip25farmer's son?Ida40shop assistantWelshBob50ministerLondonAlan79retired (lecturer and missionary)?John40moderatorWelshGethyn40ministerWelshNoel60ministerWelshClwyd: Buckley meeting in street talking Clwyd: Buckley farm shop buying Clwyd: Buckley talking Clwyd: Buckley talking Clwyd: Holywell attending synod reading minutes Clwyd: Holywell attending synod discussion Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting individual talks Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting talking Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting lunch Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting afternoon session Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting afternoon talk Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting financial talk Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting praying Clwyd: Holywell synod meeting end of meeting Clwyd: Buckley home having breakfast Clwyd: Buckley home after service Clwyd: Buckley home installing computor Clwyd: Cefn Mawr meeting of church elders chairing meeting Clwyd: Cefn Mawr meeting of church elders voting S conv (none) 2000-12-13edOUCSLast check for BNC World first release2000-09-01edOUCSCheck all tagcounts2000-06-23edOUCSResequenced s-units and added headers2000-01-29edOUCSRevised participant details2000-01-21edOUCSAdded date info2000-01-09edOUCSUpdated all catrefs2000-01-09edOUCSUpdated REC elements to include tape number2000-01-08edOUCSUpdated titles1999-12-25edOUCScorrected tagUsage21st September 1999edUCREL, University of LancasterPOS codes revised for BNC-2; header updated1994-11-27eddominicInitial accession to corpus
You enjoyed yourself in America Eh? did you? Oh I covered a nice trip, yes Oh very good saw Mary and Andrew and Yes, you did in fact the whole family was together for Mary's wedding Oh very nice , very nice, yes. It's horrible It is horrible isn't? Have you been busy? Yes Yes, oh. Jim's been for a, this afternoon at the Hart and Straw Club oh, not very well, we erm, we stopped going after Christmas because we had bad chests both of us Oh both cold and it's hard going that three hours in the morning, you know Yes but we'll go back again. Well I've had to stop my classes Yeah because I'm, I'm so busy Yes er, among other things I'm writing a commentary on Romans in Sutwana Oh very good, yes, aha, so er Jim's been very busy with his talks and different things and er we packed in, you know, after Christmas cos we both worked and we thought we'd have it, you know, and we caught this flu bug and Mm er, anyway we're alright now so, you know Good we shall go back, erm after Easter Yes hoping, permitting, you know, if it's not too expensive, it got very dear you know Yes, that is also a thing to Yeah erm, I'm, I'm feeling a bit hard up at the moment, I had a Yes a bill for repairing the car for two hundred and thirty pounds and so Oh, and everything comes at once, doesn't it? It does, yes You know , yes, that's what we find, and we've had water coming through the roof Mm when they put a new roof on I think they pinched the ledge round the chimney, er and it comes through there so we've had a lot to do Yeah inside, there's always something isn't there? Yes And you're busy at aren't you? Yes Yes Yes we'll have a meeting on Tuesday to decide whether we're going to have a or not. Yes, well, as a matter of fact er, the moderator was talking to me on the telephone Aha I think it was yesterday yeah erm, he wants to come along and see you Yeah, aha erm, I, I don't think there's any question about you getting a minister Do you think we'll get one? Oh yes Oh erm, but er, you know, wh whether it'll be a good thing to link up with somebody I don't know yet No that's one of the things he'll want to talk about Yes of course, er, you know this thing we've been talking about joining with the Yeah do you think that's going to come to anything? Well honestly I, I don't know because I haven't been in the discussions No before but, the ordinary, the congregation at St Jones hasn't Mm but erm, we've got friends in the Methodist church and they told us things that er, you know, absolutely to us, er, whoever represents us doesn't come any of the bring anything back and you don't know Mm, well the thing is there's some similar conversation going on in are there? but, er, I don't think they've got as far as yours have No, oh, I mean personally I think it would be better for the United Reformed to join up with the shared pastures instead of joining up with the Methodist because the Methodist have got plenty of churches in their area, haven't they? They have there, yes, and Yes and the trouble is of course, they've, the Methodist haven't really joined up themselves No that's true Alan, no, aha, I know, aha, and they want to pay somebody a fee to do a service, how many service have we had done? Oh We enjoyed the moderator very much when you was a Good We I liked him very much Mm and of course he'll be coming up tomorrow for Yes That's , that's at Hollywell Yes I expect somebody from St. Jones will be coached. How's Nigel these days? Well he's off sick as far as I know Mm but, I did hear something, I don't know whether it's true, that the doctors took him off the because that, he wanted to go up for a medical which was a bit erm, unethical , but I don't know whether it's true it's, you know it's just what someone said Oh it was on good authority, but you know you got, the things get exaggerated Yes I haven't seen him, I, I think they were away at the weekend aha well he's, the last time I saw him was, was being having, was trying to have a lot of fund raising things Mm and er , what's, what's the last one? Oh it was the Valentine's cover, it, it'll and we'd all made different things, you know, and there was loads of food, but his children wanted one particular thing, well they were late coming in and of course it had gone, so he, he wasn't very happy and he didn't stay long and he didn't, he, he did look terrible, he did really Oh but, er, I don't see it, that kind of a job which he's going to do, if it don't have Hello Hello, hello and, looks so ill, it's not very good for the people he's looking after is it? No, oh well let's hope he'll get better Well I hope so, yes er, but I, I, I've heard that erm shingles does have this sort of after effect Yes, aha but you know, it takes a long while to get over it Yes but I hope he will because Oh, I hope so I mean he's a young man and he's Yes done a good job I think Yes oh yes, that's right I mean he's, I think we'll miss him, but I think he's entitled to a move he's been here for a little while Oh yes it's been nine years by the time he goes Mm it, oh yes it is, I'm surprised that he stayed so long Mm but there you are, that's how it goes, anyway I hope to see you Right You'll have to come up sometime I'll try and do that I'll give you a ring, a ring for you to come up Right, thanks very much Lovely to see you Goodbye Yes, bye
They want to know what spoken English is like You can tape me by all means, but they probably won't like my voice Er, now what do I want? Erm, oh half have a large one Yes I think so, or, more often by medium, I don't really know which one is best Well, er, if you poach an egg, those are too big Mm, no, let me have those then, cos I do sometimes poach an egg Yeah, well, they say that they're too large to poach them with, they come over the top, there we are, thank you. Er I want, I want to make a casserole have you got either a neck of lamb or an ox tail or something like that? I've got some ox tail, erm neck of lamb Philip have you got one? Neck of lamb's off Well I'll have an ox tail then That's one thirty for the whole one, is that too much for you? No I'll use that I think You can freeze it if you don't That's what I do if you don't want it all did I see Robert with you the other day? Was it Robert? He was, er Has he got a Volvo Robert's car? Er, well both Robert and David have got Volvos, so Oh er, if, if it was, if it was the last few days it was probably David Yes, I think it might of been Wednesday Er, yes that was David, Robert hasn't, Robert's coming next weekend, but he hasn't been here for a few weeks Yes, I just saw you at the crossroads you see Mm and I was sort of concentrating so I just that was David that was with me, er, now the next thing is I want something to cook quickly er, er let me have a pound of sausages Right, well we've got different types of so I don't know what you, whether you would like er ordinary pork mm leek, sticky thing, pork and ham, pork and tomato and herbs Goodness what a choice, if you like something they're all quite nice Yes, er oh I should think er let's try the tomato one, I haven't had, I haven't seen sausages with tomato in before Well they are , they are very nice, half a pound or just a couple? Er, half a pound will do, no give me a pound, I'll put them in the freezer and Right use them as they come er and er, one of these chicken fillets I think please Hello Hello Morning Morning Ninety four pence I think that's about all I can do so far Right, thank you three eighty five do you want them in a carrier bag? No, I'll put them in this, why use up your carrier bags, anyhow this is an easier way to carry It is five, pound coin underneath, ten, lovely Thank you very much Thank you very much Take care I'll do that Working the weekend? Well, er only in the evening, but we've got a tomorrow so I'll be out all day right, good bye
You're not Welsh speaking at all, are you? No. Mm, mm, but you are Welsh? Was born in Brockly Aha I wasn't born sorry about that That's alright my father, well he does speak Welsh and my mother could understand it I see but she couldn't speak it Mm and I'd always been sorry that my dad told us, you know. I've been trying to learn it, but I haven't got very far No, I don't think I, I'm too old now I'm almost sorry that Well I was er seventy six when I started learning it Yeah , me nephew he lives up by erm Clan Derris Ah yes Mm and by he and his wife were headmaster in the village village of and their master, headmaster used to give Wallace two lessons and they had it in different houses, you know I see, yes because they get very naughty up there and they're living there and they don't speak Welsh Mm you know they, when they first went up there to live, they er, had quite a problem, and the trouble was, was, the two boys they were born in Australia you see and they came here, and one was four and the other yes of course they had a problem hadn't they? English speaking in the house and Welsh at school so it was quite, and er then they, they, well they weren't learning very well at all Oh they always seemed backward, they found that they took them to different specialist and the truth is, they've both left school now and got jobs, but they were er, dyslexia Oh goodness they found out both of them Oh but they got jobs, quite good jobs, and the fella who it is employing them, he's one himself, so he employs that sort of people you see? Mm But they get on now Good but they, they passed the driving test first time and you know er, they couldn't find out what it Mm, sorry it, he was only partly the language then? Pardon? He was only partly the language then? Yes, yeah Mm yeah, that's very, you know it'll, it quite embarrassed in school and that and erm for them Mm but er, as I say they've grown now and got these jobs and they're quite happy. Good But surprising the people that you don't realise, you know, it troubles the parents and as I say they took them to a number of specialists and given different things Mm couldn't find out Mm why , and then of course this all came out alright alright, goodbye then Do you want your paper? Oh it's not very valuable is it? Thanks Thank you, goodbye
I don't think I I'm likely to say anything use, use down and taken in evidence against me It's all supposed to be anonymous anyway. Right, now, do you like er Yes, oh yes, yes Right It doesn't, it doesn't really matter, right Right, hope that'll be alright Yeah that's a nice er, slot, were you looking to go out in the garden? Yes, er, a, yes Er, help yourself Have a, take as much as you like, there's another packet there Oh right, that'll do me I think, thank you. I didn't want to put the new stuff on top of the old until er knew whether we'd finished or not, yes I think I'll have to open it Getting into those things is er a major task innit? Yes These plastic bags and various That's a nice big greenhouse you've got there. Yes, er, we put that on as a, we bought it as a do it yourself job. Oh yeah, aha how long ago, I mean how long has it been there? Erm, nearly twelve years I think now, no must, must be more than that ah, have to get a pair of scissors What brought you to this part when you, went back to Well largely because we couldn't afford a house in the area where we both grew up Where was that? The south east London Oh yeah, oh right At least I was born in Kent but er brought up in south east London Oh yeah, where the, whereabouts? Erm, born in Welling and er and then, then we moved to Lewisham Mm, mm erm, that was immediately after the war, you know, the first war Right did your erm wife come from the same area? Well, in a way, although her parents were Scotch Oh her mother's family from St Andrews and her father from Dundee Oh but they moved out of London long before Erm, oh he came to London to get work Yeah Yeah And what made you choose this particular part of Well one, one of my sons is married to er, gir , girl whose family live in Buckley Oh, oh and er originally when, when we first sought to retiring, retiring, we were attracted to the Dales, but we couldn't afford that No no this is the great problem of er at the moment, oh it was C W M when you retired wasn't it? Mm And erm and did they, had they got their nanny form of assistance? They had but it was erm, much less satisfactory as a U R C one Mm but they've changed now, they're more or less on the same basis as the U R C Oh but erm it didn't look a very attractive proposition at the time Oh for one thing, if we'd taken one of their houses and I'd died first, my wife would of been left without a home Oh dear except for going to the er, you know, they've got that place in Worthing erm Yeah erm Yeah Levers House Yeah but we were, neither of us very keen on that No not really, no Could you of chosen erm where to have the house or did they have some, that had been left for that purpose? Erm, I'm not really sure, we didn't go into it very deeply No Fortunately Ruth had some money from her father which covered buying this house Oh, oh erm At that time property was fairly cheap in Bradley Mm, mm we got this for seven and a half thousand Oh, blimey, mm I think it cost more than that now Oh I think so, yeah you wouldn't purchase the land that it stands on for that now Mind you it's only a paper profit because you can't rely on it No, no Where are you from originally ah? London, east London, East Ham actually I was brought up till I was about seven er in the same area, but erm in a place called Beckton Oh that's where the gas works used to be. That's right, yeah, just over, not far over the water from er the Woolwich That's right , no, yes, I know not far from where we live really Mm, mm and I often tell people that er, those who don't come from London don't realise the difference between north and south Mm south London they're two different worlds aren't they? In a way Yes for the people who live there they are, anyway the river's a great divide Oh yeah Yes, it's amazing how a big delight it is, despite all the bridges Oh that's right, mm You didn't go straight from college overseas Well, as near as possible because, erm, I mean I was appointed to, to Africa while I was still in college Oh, mm, mm but then there was delay because of war conditions Mm, mm so so it was nearly a year before we actually got away aha in the end I took a, a at Hayes in Kent Oh yeah erm, on the understanding that er, if a passage came up I would leave Mm well, erm, I took the chair at my first church meeting and tended my resignation Oh did you? Mm, erm The war was over by then? No Oh this was nineteen forty two Oh oh no, the war was very much on at the time Mm What vessel did you go on then? Erm a free French one called Desaraed Oh flying the flag of Lorraine Oh really? Mm Erm did you go in convoy or? Mm, we started out in convoy in Liverpool Mm, mm and we were in con convoy for about a week, then we suddenly found ourselves alone Oh and we had a whole month at sea without seeing land Oh dear you were pleased to get off weren't you? Very And where'd you land? mm, yes So where, what, what route did you take? Goodness only knows, I think Oh I think we went pretty well across the Atlantic erm Mm right quite a long way west Oh we didn't have any trouble from U-boats, but we picked up some boats Yeah from a ship that had Yeah the rules were not to do that, the ships weren't supposed to stop because apparently the submarines sometimes lurked there Oh, waiting for others, yeah but er, they did stop, not for long, erm, there's a, a er when they sited these boats they got out their cargo derricks Mm and er, let, let down, erm a hook each end of each boat Mm picked boat people and all, dumped them on the deck and went on full steam ahead was that though, that passenger vessel that had been sunk then? The one that's been sunk Mm was, was a cargo vessel Mm they got a less star crew and as well Yours was a passenger ship was it? Mm Are you your wife's with you? No Yes Have you got her passage, haven't got her at the last minute, mm well in fact we heard on Monday it was a passage and we sailed on Friday You had everything packed up already Mostly You took a good deal with you at that time I presume Yes, quite a lot, well as much as we could Yeah er, oh erm, erm we didn't have anything like furniture No but er only your personal quite a few books Oh I see excuse the wrapping but it keeps the that's alright, thank you erm Dustbin? I meant to put this one out as well You made them did you? Yes Mm So when did you first come back for leave, on leave? Erm nin , must been ninety, nineteen fifty I think, yes, we had eight years before our first yeah, yeah And you had some advantages Yes and you get acclimatized in that time Oh yeah, that's right, yeah erm, you know in the sense of regarding the country as home Yes that's right, yeah, yeah, yes that's right I mean to our children, although they've been away from Butchwana for quite a few years now it's still home It is, yeah, definitely Andrew the eldest still keeps his Butchwana passport Oh does he? Oh oh how many times have you been back since you've retired? Twice Aha, cos it's a very expensive business to It is, yes to go backwards and forwards and I'll try this I think yeah and the last time you say was in September September This September? This past September, mm Did you find much change since your last visit, previous visit? Oh quite a lot Oh economically it's changes in it. for the good or not? Well in many ways yes, they, there's powered roads, there's electricity and even water on tap, they never had oh not, not everywhere though they've got water on tap, but quite a few places Mm where were you mostly, well where was your first appointment? Erm, well first of all to Denotra which is in er, not far from the South of France erm the river is, is erm just a bed of sand most of the year Yeah it does, when it ru , when it rains it does come down Mm, mm and fast Mm Then we moved to Sawori and after that Damole up in the north west Mm and finished in when I was doing a, a late training programme Oh, mm, mm for the, for the whole country But you mostly doing district work are you? Yes, until, until I moved to Rubansi And they were in traditional mission stations were they? More or less, yes Was that doing we, we didn't have the big stations that you know, people who seemed to have in China and that and No and India it was usually just one man and his wife Right, yeah, yeah, yeah Er, are you ready for tea or? Yes please, mm, mm Sorry I'll have to put you where the teapot is That's alright, do you put milk in first or I generally do, I don't know that it matters Say how much That's alright Do I stir it first the tea? I doubt if it needs it, but er Oh Oh it's a bit weak try and stir it, see what happens Oh well, perhaps I didn't put enough tea in that'll do Oh how long were you doing the, day training? Oh for six or seven years Er was that ministers that and or only, all No la , local preachers local preachers. Where did your ministers go for training? Erm well in the early days we had to take a kiddies bible school Oh of course, yes but then later on it was to erm, set up, which started at Adams and we used the American mission near Lovedale well it was a part of Lovedale and erm, now, now it's at er, they call it The Federal Theological Cemetery Oh yeah and it's at, it's near Peter now, what's the name of the place erm? Mm ah just lost the name of the place, but it's quite near Peter that's the place that Jack was found Mm yes yes I've been consulting him a bit about my Romans project Oh yeah, so mm, no, this is very nice this er That's a recipe I got from, well Ruth got it from our daughter-in-law from America Oh It's a New England recipe Oh is it? Have you been there the New England? Mm I put that back? Yes just remember to open it again Did I sugar it? I don't think you did Was there at your next tour of service shorter Yes after that first one? the next one was six Oh then it gradually reduced to two, right at the end we were getting every two years Yes, that's right, yeah but that didn't happen very often to us because it was just being introduced That's right , yeah, yeah Yes our first tour was five, it was supposed to be four, but, we erm, er for some reason or other we didn't really want to come home, ha four, so we stretched to three well we had one more tour after that, erm, but the and would really of referred to of stayed, made the next tour longer than two Mm but er, rules are rules aren't they? It seems I, oh I seemed to feel that it, it was, if we wanted to see three it was gonna upset, well they seemed that, I thought it would save money if they Mm but we stayed home then, yeah I'm not quite sure where you did go Zambia Ah I had been into Zambia, but not very often Oh In fact when I was stationed in Mule I used to travel through Zambia to get to one of my out stations Oh did you? simply because the roads were better that side, when it was Northern Rhodesia You crossed on the pontoon did you? Yes And then came back over the bridge? O , over the falls bridge Oh we did that a few times when the, the borders were closed with came across pontoon through, of course it's a much more e , elaborate pontoon now then it was then I'm sure that was er oh it wasn't very elaborate well you could get one, one and a half ton truck on it and it was driven across with a couple of engines I can't remember of it the others with a, the engine midway I know they did put in er a, a much better ferry they Oh yeah , yeah and then of course the Americans paid for that road up to mm, that's right, yeah but er, which really was a waste of money it was, well it's used a bit for tourism now Mm, mm but it's , but commercially it was of no importance No but it was er part of the sanctions policy against Rhodesia Yeah that's right Where were you in, in Zambia? Erm, I was, we was all the time we were there, in er Ah the theological college Mm er, the only time I really went any distance was er, well, I went with er Paul to Oh yeah it was er, at a time when this an African district committee sent representatives to the central and visa versa Oh, oh Mm That must of been some time ago Yes Nineteen fifty something I think erm, of course the economic out in Zambia the economic situations is disastrous now and the drought of course has made it worse Pardon? The drought The drought yeah, yeah just now the drought seems to be much more widespread now doesn't it and er into South Africa Well I was looking at the er Very bad erm and they were saying that er, South Africa's going to have to import food this year That's right, yeah normally, South Africa feeds these other countries north, further south in, in bad years Mm, mm. Yes South Africa has erm, er, er, we have a regular erm A four sheet two, two sides of A four sheet, erm it was weekly, but it's erm a fortnightly Mm newsletter now it's just a news sheet from, of Zambia Mm er, it's pretty youthful this country with it's Zambian er, call it Zambian newspa , newspapers so it's very liable as to what, you know it's no comm , it's not comment at all, it's just, and erm the last one two weeks ago I think it was, indicated that erm South Africa's production of maize would be, oh I can't remember, but a lot short of what they require themselves Yeah, oh, it's down to about a quarter of normal it is A quarter is it? As low as that. Because there are worries that it's going to er, effect the outcome of this mad ref , referendum, you know they the farmers are sort of desperate and they think they need government help and they think they wouldn't get it because of the black government so But erm, Botswana's erm, doing quite well Oh yes, well you see they've got the names Yes that's right, but erm, unfortunately Zambia's the copper, has had the copper and Mm the copper erm and of course, er, normal years they also earn quite a lot from exporting their cat
If any of you want a copy of the document on Alders referred to in the Ecumenical report I have some here you can study it over lunch. Before we go on to keep the, to to look at the minutes and for the young people who were actually on the weekend in . Sharing everything on a different . And what I've asked is that they actually did and not separate it. The suggestion had been that in the galleries So as they come in would you make a statement and then two minutes they had and that one's just next year. It makes a lot of difference cos if you've been in a church hall before! Although, you don't . Just this table. Perhaps that's why we haven't got a group for the next one. Quite warm again. Yeah. They're doing it by the . Oh! What we booked the church? Do you want to see him? We got books here that the trouble! Oh yes. Things like bibles. Yeah, they quite like. That there like that. No that'll be better. Got my thick old coat, I wished I hadn't put it on now! haven't got the I thought it would be here! Well yes You know. you never these da I don't even think you know us. I know your husband, but I don't think I've known before. I don't know Oh yes you have met me before! Oh ha, have I? We met at the don't you remember? Oh yes, I'd forgotten that bit. When you told us about Naniel and a , you know? The Yeah. name of the shop. yes Oh yes. it was ! May I and I hope that the young people will join us, they'll feel welcome to join in any conversation during this session of of, you know? And just one other plan we'd welcome is the young people in the come in. I think he would welcome you as well. Stand up. I can't remember your surname, I've gotta be honest. You really wanna know? Sorry? , right! Very Dutch! Mr Bob is the Minister of in the United States of America. But at the moment serving with the group of churches in Ealy, Bathyclyn and also with erm part time working in Ealy as the youth worker for the community working partly for Dr Barnados partly for the ULT and Methodist and he'll acting in it as well in Ealy and sponsored by the Global of the United States. The , obviously. We welcome you. . The minutes of the last thing on the , and everybody should see who elected president, although some people will have forgotten, but I haven't. And before any I ask you whether there are two additions to these minutes. Right, the first addition is on the last page under the erm the Royal Hall of Ministers and Elders to er remember their . Erm printed in the official copy for this but left off this copy were the names, also the Reverend of Glangothwyn and the Reverend Victor of Hamwell Erm does anybody else wish to make any comments on the minutes of .
Knowing Martin what John has just told me about him if I didn't know him I don't think it would me anything! Brief details like that are meaningless! I trust the Ministerial Committee to make decisions and bring recommendations. On the other hand, I would like to meet the candidates to see what they look like. But that doesn't apa , but what they look like is not going to affect whether I support the Ministerial Committee or not. What actual details do we give to you? Despite what David said, that Yeah. rather hurt! Putting it in therefore, we did read the description. Yes, oh oh. Actually, I think David is right. I , it didn't come over, but for me when we interviewed Martin is one of most refreshing interviews I've had the pleasure of taking part in! He's a man of rare who was so privileged to go to Cambridge and to be interviewed. And came back having learnt a new verse which was probably written about twenty or thirty years ago but recognised that his own congregations would be very suspicious of them! And it delights from this thank you John. Okay number two would you please affirm the call of Ian for in the psychiatric unit. No. Would you of . our counselling . I've been involved in interview with . Don't you like my ? Right. Yes, he's about five foot eleven! erm he is a member of Vanroch Caerphilly at URC and has done I think he is currently at and erm have felt a gentle call emerging over the last few years and erm all started in Cambridge, that's about it, that's all I can say. Oxford. Oxford, sorry! Had too much . All in favour of er Ian's call being affirmed please. Thank you. And thirdly, we ask you to affirm the call of Peter for praying for in the ministry. Peter is a member of right, he's actually a member of Clygarthy URC but he works and has erm as a form of day pastor and . Member of Clan othel URC and has worked and served as a form of day pastor at Clygarthy URC and he has come from the Anglican tradition Church of England and he has erm over the years towards the reform tradition. He seeks to work as a ministry within the Vale and brings tremendous in erm to the ministry which he he will hopefully let the side . He is also a self-employed . I thought he'd be touting for business! We are not at the time of business, we are here to affirm the call! All in favour please show. Thank you. As we come to end of of that part we have erm Burmingford Hall of Ministry two, three people and we have also as part of the report recognised the timing of Roy , where's Roy? Roy, who is sitting over there. Lastly, recognise this man is Bob, who's sitting over there. Erm those two people, along with Bryn erm were also in, in college together. So they started their ministry off together, and I think it's something quite special to me and to recognise that we have sent three people off on a journey and three people, two here, have come to the end of a journey and just part of the journey and are beginning to discover that will be discovered in the life of the three human beings, human beings at the time. Shall we remember and these three friends in life. Lord we thank you for the ways in which you challenge and call people to all forms of ministry within the light of your church. And especially we thank you today for the call of Martin and Ian and Richard to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament within the light of your church. We pray for them and their families. We pray for them in their studies. In their pilgrimage to discover more of your presence in their lives. As they begin a particular stage of the ministry we also pray for those who are coming towards the end of that particular stage of the ministry. Remember especially Bob and Roy and we pray that you will enable them to find fulfilment and enjoyment, and enrichment in their lives as they step forward in faith and confidence in Lord in your mercy Amen. Amen. Reports are not always about revolutions and that's important! And you will see that we now have a good erm . Well, over to Noel to relax with each other thoughts, questions, comments about the life of the ministry of the church. And happens some people have prepared particular presentations, you will see after one is on , and one of political insubordination, one on the process of learning together. Five districts have erm prepared some of vision in order to share that vision or that example of what is happening in the districts, relating to the ministry erm with the and those who have come to us as well. And one church has prepared a little presentation or mind-stretching, heart-stretching thought of church and community. So we're, we're here now to relax. To talk about the Ministry of Office. I think, in starting this off, I would like to encourage as many people to take place in conversation, if possible. And I will include in that those who are younger than most of us here. Er, to talk about what you think about the ministry of the church as well. We're talking about this partly because of the document passed in the ministry in which, everybody has avidly read and erm has been talked about after the seventeenth er, in York in July. But I think the more important reason for talking about the Ministry of the New Church, or the Ministry of the Church is because of the erm developing needs and the developing thoughts and ideas which are actually additions which are the, the crucial area where ministry takes place. First of all, I think it would be useful if we were clear that with the new , ministry was a waste! Too often, we are limited in thinking of ministry as those who either do or do not work where are thought of. And, we might call those Ministers, if you like, with a big M. Erm but we'll be talking about the Ministry of the Church. We're actually talking about, I mean, if you remember this , we're talking about the absinity of the body of Christ. That is the Ministry of the Church. But each one that's here however old or however young are a part an active part an essential part a crucial part of the Ministry of the Body of Christ. We are these. And how we relate within the church and how we relate outside the church although, in essence, there is nothing outside the church there is nothing that that position . Okay? As you look into your shaving mirror in the morning, you shall say, hello Minister, how are you? Or as you look into your drawer in the morning, to find out what you need to put into your hand bag in the day, you say hello Minister, how are you? Okay? That's . We're also talking in terms of a ministry which what you expect is very often what you get you're trained to be somebody , okay?. And one of the things that these trainings help you is that if you expect something of a child then you're much more likely to get it! That way it's positive. If you expect that child is going to do a fantastic job on that painting then that encouragement and confidence is coming across. It also works negatively! If you don't expect much from little Tommy then, little Tommy is less and less likely to give you anything much! So we're talking about ministry. We're talking about something which is bound by our expectations. We need to be aware of our expectations because our expectations can be limiting and can be stretching and inspiring. We also are exercising the Ministry of the Church within a context. We've learnt something about the church and . One of the contexts in which we are exercising ministry is that we have for the last fifty years well I haven't personally! But for the last fifty years or so for most of us the experience of the church has been declined and closer and reducing number of people with dog collars. Okay? There have been negative interference. We need to be aware of how those can actually triple the numbers. We need to be aware of how we are subconsciously taught. A Geographer knows that and the whole environment importance. A Geographer also knows that in order to use maps you need to know where you are. You can't get anywhere without knowing where we are. Half of our exercise in listening to each other is to know where we are. In order that we can begin to recognise the movements and the visions and the views of where we can be. Knowing where we are in terms of the way in which we are tricked into having bad . Knowing where we are in the way in which we are tricked into believing that erm our churches now are weaker than when they were founded and probably most of you, many of you have heard my children's prayer. the children are the difference between churches now and churches in the past. Especially at church anniversaries. . And nine times out of ten when I ask the congregation whether your church is bigger now than it was when it was founded nine times out of ten the congregation say, it is smaller now than when it was founded. And nine point nine times out of ten they are wrong! We've got a wrong false image of the . And that is harmful! And it's parallel. Those visions come from within ourselves. Come from the way in which we don't necessarily take on board what we are learning. They come also from orgasmic enters or whatever such programmes there are go around these days, ! Carole, you tell the people sitting next to you what orgasmic is. What did he say? I don't know ! Is it Derek Nimmo? In the nineteen fifties. I never Erm I never watched it, in fact. There's also the whole of notion of what we are saying by our ministry together. Okay? What we are, what we are saying by our buildings. sort of ended in a little What we are saying by our notice boards. Many of which are still in action. What we are saying by our commitment or our attitude. What we are saying by the way in which we share what we are saying by our commitment to justice and peace. All of these are involved and a part of our ministry. And, that again, might be me but many of you when you've heard me say it in a service I've ended up with my asking at the end of a sermon asking the congregation to smile. Now, you know that's how many of you I, have I done that to? Well that, that may be a reflection on me, okay? But what are we saying by our expressions both within worship and outside? And of course, our discussion of ministry i.e. the activity of the people of God is not just a domestic thing about the URC. I mean, we we get bound up with with all sorts of domestic things, and will, I expect, later today. But it's also erm about discovering the completeness of the ministry of the people of God as we enter through the various commitments that we have to our sister churches in Wales and in Britain and in the world, whether it's routine or a particular relationship of members or All that's part of the context of the ways in which we're talking about and sharing with each other with God. Please smile? There is a list here three major's presentations on communion on political insubordination and on the pilgrimage of learning together. I think what we'll do is hear each of those three presentations and then I will allow a time for comment, especially discussion after each I will limit that to make sure we get time for all so that's that's the way we're going to do it. Thank you. But first of all in terms of a precedency attitude I hope I'm looking in the right place? Nannette erm is going to lead us in our . Nannette would you like everybody where you are and who you are? Nannette the Minister of the United Reform Church in Merthyr also sharing the ministry with the Presbyterian Church of Wales in Merthyr and Merthyr Vale. Thank you John for that introduction. I remember John coming to Merthyr and asking the young people to find, see if there was anybody who was over a hundred in the congregation! And the dazzling thing was that quite a few made a beeline for a lady who co , could at least give thirty years! I thought haven't noticed from where I'm standing! In preparing ours for today and the whole question of thinking of being, main precedency of communion rests in our understanding erm, of ordination, which I know later we we will have time to discuss. But, may I ask yo , of you a question not for answers but will erm perhaps come later in the debate and that is what does the service of Holy Communion mean to you? Our answers will get crushed. But one thing that I would share with you and it's this, is that whenever the friends of Jesus eat and drink together they remember him his sacrificial love for them and the wonderful gift of freedom that he has made possible. I'll say at the outset, that Holy Communion is not something that we play about with. Our communion service is part of the rich tradition which has been passed down to us from Jesus Christ. But having sa said that I have to share with you the a key element er, in the life of the church has been the ordained Ministry of Word and Sacrament and pastoral care. And there is no intention to dispense with this kind of service. But concern is expressed in the number of jobs that the perfect minister is expected to do. I stand here, I am not a perfect minister because I am over forty I've got children that are not too awkward but erm, could be awkward and, I haven't a spouse ah and ah I stand here saying that I'm not good at everything I'm good with young people, I'm not o only good with old people I try to do my best. We know the picture of a perfect minister but we there is a challenge to relief ministers to do the work that they are called to do. This will lead to a long deba debate. But, it is it seems from this report that is in front of us that it is now appropriate for the URC to take a new step with regard to the local ministry of elders. Already this morning the question has been asked about providing elders. And it is that each local church, of whatever sign should be invited to nominate from amongst their elder division those elders who district council might consider and recognise as dividing elders for a stated period of years with authority to do , provide them all services of worship and meetings of that local church, as the need arises. And this has been suggested, the same thing, the understanding that we have now of special authorization which obviously doesn't work. The reasons for looking at this change and, I quote the reports the the ways the district council interpret the existing clause about provi , precedency is the district council ah, interpret in very different ways. A second thing is that a co , is it right that a company of people should be deprived of a sacrament because an ordained minister is not available? Remembering the words of Jesus, that where two or three are gathered together. The third thing that the re , the report says is that there is no magical element about sacraments. But sacrament has everything to do with the grace of God and the faith of the church. And this proposal is seen, lastly, as developing local leadership. The proposal is that presiding elders and whether proposal is the right word, but the suggestion that presiding elders be appointed following our conviction that every local church should have regular sacramental worship with presiding with people presiding being allowed. Can I close by saying that every time Christians share the Lord's supper they are publicly declaring their needs to be fed with the living bread and wine. What does the holy communion, what the Lord's supper mean to you? and our visitors from other churches are also welcome to join in in any discussion or comments. And any more, for those who feel like it, there's provision for Sorry? Anyone who's visiting from other churches. And we lack provisions that allows for a presidency in the absence of a minister is a good one as long as it is monitored closely by district council. And be that there no magical erm like you, which I agree there is a mystical. Like it isn't you know that the Eucharist, er the the the communion is very central to our worship and having had ten years working at the Navy that was an eye opener and deepening of my own spiritual awareness in the, as in the sanctity that I got, the sacrament and how other churches see it and er helped to create a very affirm, at the very centre of my own if you like, pilgrimage. What had abhorred me in the past and sometimes, er, perhaps arrive and been to the church and say, oh by the way it's communion! And have that sprung on me I I I, I I feel terrible because the communion service i is, is something I have to prepare for in myself and obviously shape the whole se se service around it. And I think we need to heighten, sharpen our awareness of erm what I understand by communion and er er, also to er, to remember that the injunction of Paul as he was you know that I have received of the Lord at which I deliver unto you. Those words of execution as we continue to read them. There's a severe warning against those who can't do it in a spirit of of of, lardiness and, and not discerning to the body and and, and the will of Christ. Perhaps that needs to be reminded about them. But they sho er er er, it's good to have and sharing it but I but I, but I, I personally feel as long as it's well monitored within the within the district council in the event of a minister not being able to be there then er a reco , er som , a recognised person to . Right when we Who, who are you? Oh you ask difficult questions, that's all you can get! No giants in Ardmore Vale! No giants in Ardmore Vale You'd make do that! See Is it me? . Ah? I've forgotten what I was gonna say! Yep. Erm oh yes my next question was er, what is holy communion? I'd like to re-phrase the question what is holy in communion? Okay well I mean do we say, what is holy in communion we then recognise that it's not what but who who is holy in communion okay? The holy, as in communion to me is a who not a what! Okay? And I think that debate er between the, the tradition and, and the the and and er, Roman Catholic traditions, you know i er, this business of elevating the host and and substantiation so the elements themselves that, that it become holy alright? And then it's a kind of a what, you know? It's the body of a what, and the blood as a what! Have you read ? But that's not it! And that's not what Paul meant when he said the body of a what! He meant who? That is holy. And who is holy? Jesus Christ. Alright? You wanted it, and that's it! When two or three are doubted they're wrong! So, what's the who? That's the holy to me. And the other who of holy is the Saint. I'm making this point because I think that we can get really to verify You're always going on about You know this whole of idea of things and ritual being the holy and that things in the ritual there yes, there are sacred symbols and they need to be handled in that, that, that sense of sacredness, but the that which makes them sacred is the person, our Lord and us in communion with him and with each other and it seems to me that wherever that happens there is sacrament. Wherever that happens there is holy communion. Even if the elements aren't even present. Okay? But I think I think those elements are important otherwise Jesus wouldn't have made a point of it! David East Wales. Can I clarify please what exactly we are talking about here? Because the do document, Patterns of Ministry does not talk about lay presidency! It talks about the presidency of ordained people! Elders who are ordained! Now, I rather wish it was talking about lay presidency and I would go along with Nannette on the question of a lay person presiding in communion. Ecumenical dynamite, I know! But I think we need to be clear whether we are talking about ordained or lay people and further on in the discussion whether we can indeed justify that division. How can try and allow an elder as an ordained minister of the free people . Can I say that need holy communion as a group thing in a way of our communion and as a church we are going to be Roman Catholic. It is the community as a an affirmation of the community and to say that we need to have an outsider in to do that because there is not an ordained minister there to me, is a little like the situation in some Anglican Parishes where there's a woman sitting
We will move on . I'm allowed to say something pilgrimage of love and the parish knows that too because something that er it's . So the three words that's come to my mind immediately are go and do! And you will recognise them as the words of Jesus. They are direct they're clear they're simple and most importantly they are words of one syllable. But they still have a conscience and they challenge that they . Now the the annual assembly has challenged us to engage in what is called integrated trading. Personally, I prefer to speak about learning together because I think it's more friendly use, er, user friendly I think I understand it better and it reminds me that it's connected with disciple-ship. Because I'm quite sure that the young people this morning everyone would know that the word disciple means Follower isn't it? Well you're all shy aren't you? yes? Means a learner. Now the word disciple means learner. So that we're all involved disciple-ship is integrally, er, learning is integral to our disciple-ship. And we are involved not just, spasmodically or occasionally but continuously. And learning together as we've been reminded more than once than this morning engages us all irrespective of age, irrespective of experience it engages everyone and it's worth emphasising that the quality of learning does not depend upon the size of a congregation! And I say that in a right of some statistics that appear in today's agenda. The quality of learning depends upon the measure of our response and of our commitments. It involves sharing our gifts with each other freely and generously. It means erm learning with each other and learning from each other because none of us knows it all! And I think, also, it means being open open to one another and open with one another. And when you put all that together I think we would recognise that there is no single of learning that suits every congregation because congregations differ, one from the other. And we remind ourselves that the spirit is also infinitely versatile and flexible in its activity. But when we consider learning together are a model. To use an educational term it's an active model it's an active model of, model of partnership and of sharing. Patterns of Ministry to my mind can be interpreted as patterns of sharing and partnership is active and not fussy. Partnership is creative and not rigid. Partnership is dynamic and not . And then learning together is a model of dynamic encounter or dialogue, one with the other. And by that, I mean that we engage one another in a process. We cannot all, as it already been emphasised by the last speaker we may not all be able to do the same things we have not all got the same gifts or the same responsibilities er within the church but you all have the same responsibilities in this light of God. And that implies that our learning together engages us in dynamic encounter dynamic dialogue which also releases some of those energies in various areas of life that would otherwise be sealed or indeed, locked! And I were to guess that learning together is also a model of rich and diverse possibilities. There is no one who can foresee what are the ultimate results. Or what is the ultimate outcome of any learning process? There is no blueprint that one could lay down but with a on the infinite versatility of God to use and deploy the gifts that we are able to offer to his service. The Holy Spirit is also flexible and progressive in operation. And therefore, in learning together there are rich and diverse possibilities. And I would suggest through us learning together is a model of effective evangelism. For evangelism at best is a congregation learning together. Learning together for the word. Learning together for the sacrament. Learning together through prayer and worship and all the activities of the church. Learning together by entering, entering into the experience of one or the other and also engaging the community around the church, not superficially but er realistically. And it would seem to me that unless this morning's exercise which has been so rewarding and so profitable unless this morning's exercise is to dissipate into another piece of feeling and er pleasurable discussion then we ought to take quite seriously the, the words of Jesus. Go and do! And see whether we can no , we could put this matter of learning together that every member of of our church high on the agenda. Well, at the next er elders meeting the next church meeting the next district council or whatever. We'll move on. And read the please six and visions from Viscuss The first one is going to be given a bit more time and then the other five are going to brief. And we'll ask Christian, who's erm an elder Yes, right. In Garmonchaty to share an experience of their church in terms of using ministry. A ministry that we don't often think of as a ministry. Correct sir? . Er, in the introductions I didn't stand up and er, introduce myself cos I felt it would steal a few minutes of my er presentation! This is re , it is my first visit to a . My name's Chris , I'm from the river town URC in just down the road. What we've been embarking on in the er the URC church in Shodden is er budgeting the title of my talk today is budgeting for growth. We hear about budgets in all walks of life, indeed we saw a red box only a few days ago. I'm afraid I've only got a little red one! This will happen next week. So we've had the most famous budget of all. I suppose you could argue that his budget was er, a budget for growth but my discussion this morning is apolitical. But I'll make not comment on his budget at all. The basic principle of a budget is straightforward it's to forecast your forecast your expend expenses so they can make plans for the future. Big and lit , little businesses alike budget for growth. It enables them to make most, most cost-effective use of their resources. So why shouldn't a church do the same? On this approach, following a presentation and a discussion led by the Reverend Bill about eighteen months ago. And I've written this paper, not to give information and details on, how you do budget. There are plenty of papers and books and guidance from the URC to help you do that. What I'd like to share with you this morning is how we as a church took that challenge and the experiences we feel we've received from taking that challenge. We have begun to feel the benefit. Well how was it at er Shodden Well, like any other church we thought we were doing well. We were just getting enough money in to do just enough in the church. The church was helping the spirit. Helping in kind. Helping the fellowship. What more as a church could we ask for? Well maybe they can like any other church was the an , or is, the Annual Church ge the Annual General Meeting and as John pointed out this morning of course, we look at what we've done in the past. The finances the well being of our own flock what we have done. But, look at the tense, it's what have done . It's a retrospective view. That is important, we learn from experiences. But it's what we've done in the past. What about the future? How many of us actually, in our church meeting, look forward to what we want to do? Where's the direction of your church? Where's the direction of your fellowship that they can follow? Are there any problems that may be looming on the horizon that perhaps you ought to be addressing before they reach the door? We need to grow together and enjoy the experience together. So what changed us? Well, the presentation by Bill helped in supporting provided was the . We've heard it all before! But not, at any time, in the context of the church. A number of us went to that presentation the minister, the church secretary, myself, and the treasurer at the time and a few of the elders. We listened and learned that if the church is to grow it must consider all its resources! Reference to that again this morning. We must tap that wealth with talent. I suppose really we learn by who sent us that evening. A sense of purpose a sense of involvement a sense of direction a sense of satisfaction and a sense of achievement. We're beginning to experience all those. And I suppose we also experience a sixth sense. A sense of humour we've heard that again this morning. And Bill, in there, used sense of humour to get some of his points over. But we've got all of those. talk from any of you. If you look closely at that to what depth to what depth do those senses reach in your church? Our church has money to spend on on anything! , fabric, fellowship worship, mission the list is endless! What a delightfulness to choose from! But what priority do you sign to it? Which one do you choose? How much on each of those? One of the problems you may be facing in your church is inertia the feeling that we're doing fine everything's ticking over. But remember, the same effort reaps the same reward. So we returned from that evening together and were very enthusiastic about what we heard. The seed was sown in good soil. The treasurer indeed, faces the same old task every year to ask church members to give a little bit more to pay the bills. What a depressing thing to ask for! Just to keep up with inflation! Just to keep the wolf from the door. Wouldn't you generate a more positive attitude if you were aligned your increase or the request for an increase through the a an increase in activity in the church itself? That, is true growth! So what did we do? Well, first of all we told the people at the earliest opportunity we told the church members what we've learnt told them about our of the advantages and our enthusiasm and commitment to the process. We tried the process. We selected a single project to just learn how to do it just go through the process simply. It took about nine months of planning from start to finish on the one project we did. We had a programme on four consecutive Saturdays, last October help reach the . At, not a significant cost. It's a significant step for our fellowship. And the benefit is, we want to do it again this year, that's great! Plus, taking , keeping it and doing it if you see benefit in that. So that was a benefit to people outside and people inside the church. We have learnt at getting a number of people into our congregation. So that was our first success when we decided that process. Forward planning and setting objectives were a good way to focus attention. So, we set objectives and sub , subsequently planned a budget to ensure that it's successful. So what's the timetable? Well I'll take you back six months. The elders were advised in advance that we were going to discuss the future, . This enabled the eldership to start thinking about what we want to do next year to grow together. So, in the next elders meeting we used a management technique, brainstormers think the say what you think. And we gathered all this information we grouped it into those categories, admission, worship, and such like. Then later, couple of months later when we found that list checked that we understood what the list meant and we presented that list to our church meeting. This will ensure that there's commitment and that the direction is understood for the next year. So, in that presentation discussions followed and that list of nine things, I think it was, surprise surprise the church wanted to do all nine! Now there's a challenge! So what we did then, is we went to do, to do fact-finding, costs, people resources, effort and any options that might be open to us. And the culmination of the production of some financial information that simply enables you to ensure that you can meet those goals in that coming year if you choose to do so. So at the Annual, Annual General Meeting it was conducted i , very much in the same way as before presenting the previous year's activities but this time, we presented a budget! Very similar to the example that Bill provided in his hand outs. We listed a our expenditure his forecast we used the forecast based on experience and inflation. Some of them are at best guesses! But then you foil a new project to your expenditure and say look if you want to do these as indeed, you've expressed then it's going to cost you so much. If you get that agreement there one hopes you get that commitment. On a technicality the bu , the treasurer can still control it. He can measure every clause of what the income is , against what the expenditure is so that we have some control to ensure that the church life grows and we don't stumble. So, we have true growth. What are, finally, what are the benefits that we've seen here? Well if there's a commercial activity you could argue that but i , in the chu , context of the church what have we achieved? We have focus we have a direction we maintain the fiscal control we are aware of what we're doing as a church we have the the members commitment indeed, we have their involvement in what we want to do. It is future planning it is growth it is commended to you all. And I'd like to leave you with one last statement just enough, but just enough, is not enough! Thank you. We're going to now from first of all I'll say it in order and then you can come up . Jean from South Wales, come on Jean! Then Russell from East Wales then Henry for North Wales then from West Wales and Becky from Mid-Wales. Can you remember your names? Your, yo Okay? Right! It's going to be Jean, you've got the floor for ten minutes! Oh! Jean . Er, I'm Jean from Merthyr Tydfil and I'm the secretary on the committee. Within the South Wales district the question education can always, as well as trying to help and support carry pe I've worked in junior churches and many more education churches. It's very much concerned with the training and Ministry of Elders and a few weeks ago a part of our programme we held a very successful and lively meeting on the subject of church membership. It was initiated by one of our ministers erm, who felt it would be useful for churches to share er, their procedures for preparation for church membership. As he said, I know what I do with my congregation but how do others er, approach the subject? Under the leadership of the Reverend Kenneth this meeting developed into a much wider consideration of the leaning and significance of church membership. Does it begin with infant baptism? Are all children and me , and adults who have been baptised members of the church? is not or you'll be actually encouraged or pressured to misinterpret the membership or should we wait for them to be informed er er, to wait for them to, to feel the ? One or two elders confessed that they have not been baptised! And others were not sure whether they had! So what about them? We realise that this is a subject which warrants much consideration, as we think about the life and reverence of our churches and look to the future for . And we hope that our district will continue to be, be aware of ways in, in which we may help elders and churches in their ministry. Thank you. Russell? Russell , East Wales district. Erm I'd like to tell you a story about a vision of Ministry in East Wales. When I'm about to tell you a story, I thought to myself well stories that Jesus used to tell were parables and when I looked at them in the bible they had a kingdom meaning to them. And I thought to myself yes, I'll tell you a story! I'll tell you a story about a place I went
Now so much more time has been released for us to be the church but at the same time we have nowhere to hide and nothing to blame! It has meant, that churches need to be bold and be young or a threat to what we belong to as the edges between church and and community have blurred we are now much more vulnerable. Somebody said, like a tortoise without a shell. And we need a greater trust in God. It has also meant a greater love for one another as we can share our faith and come face to face with who we are. I'm glad that Pat used the word exciting but all the story you've heard this morning are exciting! But, it does Pat, doesn't it also danger! It also means fear, it also means pain. I don't know no any more what church is I don't know any more and I'm supposed to come this morning and help to discover what unity is! It blurred so much and in the blurring we have discovered our own vulnerabilities. And having raised our banners of church proudly a change is all what changes should have been! I see now narrow mindedness I see the deathedness I see suspicion of other communities I see jealousies. However, I am discovering that the church probably not the community but more a communion and that's perhaps an answer to what Nanette ? Or within the communion of our Lord Jesus Christ in word and sacrament and that living out of his love is his body and finding community. Communion actually the Holy Communion has become so much more important to us and so much more exciting to us because we're not just celebrating the living Christ we're also celebrating the crucified Christ and we're simply meeting our pain and our joys together in communion with him. I once watched a film on the telly it was a pretty crap film really! It was American no, sorry it's not! See yes the thing about community . It was a simple story, and I would of forgotten it er, about a woman struggling to bring up a family in a depression. The story was that her husband in the deep south was killed by some young hoodlums who were black. She was left to bring up a family she had to go the banks for money the banks were all and they refused her money to keep the farm going. She took on a black lad and because she did that she was ostracised from the rest of the community. He eventually was driven off the farm but the respectable white people who went to church. The story, of course, was a happy ending, that she struggled on and she did it. But for some strange reason, and I don't know whether they direct it to Christian the last shot of the film, almost unnoticeable because the credits were going up she went back into church and it was a communion service and all you saw was her receiving the bread and passing the plate and the plate was to the young black lad on the farm and you thought, he's come back! But then, no he passed the plate then to the woman's husband who had been killed! And then the plate was passed from him to his murderer and it was passed round until it was passed to the bank manager who wouldn't give her the money and then back to her. And somehow, but I can't explain it in that moment that what community's about it's about the not yet as well your . About the journey being on and the reconciliation o , of them . And that's where we are and this morning. Thank you. We thank you to everybody who's contributed to to our speaking this morning . There's a lot for you to talk about over lunch. And on the journeys home. . Just a reminder that erm, expenses and apologies should be given to Suzanne or Eileen. Erm if any have been those elders or ministers will advise us the days they are going to come, those ministers who are and seen, if we do so that we can remember whom our chosen . Downstairs there is a bookstall and there's a , today upstairs . Bon appetit!
Oh dear my batteries are going flat! Oh no it's alright! Erm So what, are you trying it out for somebody are you? No, er We to , were you recording ? I've been doing, doing so. You have? Now, you won't about the Wrexham . Er, yes. Did you have, did you read those words? Er yes, I just glanced through it. Oh! Well actually there's no decision yet from the church meeting Yeah. so we've still got to . Yes, but they could And they could sell it. I mean, my favourite but . Mm. And it was a major problem of finance it seems to me when you've two possible avenues left to take. When you I think it's yes. One is getting a loan from the church Mm. and repaying it at five percent interest or whatever is a rate of Yes. fare. And there's no guarantee they'll they'll lend it. If they ask for money. The other is to apply to come back that I the interest that I . I was told that o , over a year ago but I haven't found any yet! I see! I've got a lot of information about tru charitable trusts but all ! I can't see that any one of them which is you know, would have that as one of the things. I see. Now I haven't finished, but I mean I, it really is at the top of my mind, yo , you know it hasn't I haven't given it top priority. Well you've got a lot of other things to think about I'd say. Well all the other things have been more urgent, so therefore, I haven't really pursued it to its limits. Mm. So, you know if if you find there's a position for when they absolutely need help you know, phone me again or write to me again and tell me you've you've, you've set everything . Well keep in touch. But, well I mean I it's a so far, I really don't push. I see. I've got the names of lots of Mm. I'll try to get started. But, you know if you need some I can't any of them a , as being willing to . Mm mm. In the pipeline. But there may something at the there might Oh there mi there might be! I think might be because it's a the four churches toge together. That's right, . If it need it to share the cost of the new one but once it goes on the Sa four churches Yes. and not on the one. and er, also therefore you'll have the , if you like Yeah. or . I wish some other churches would come and . Well we'll be stuck into finding a finance man er, to watch the cost over the . You need ? Yeah, I mean . You've gotta look at the same as . Have you got Erm in the personals to me . and the personal situation now is that economic climate get a house how many are talking here! sometimes from a . Like, you'd better can I get rid of these? Please! Would you be able stay with the one you've got? Well the one we've got above our in fact, there's one next door to us going for sale at the moment and they're asking advertised prices else you'll be getting about fifty thousand on top that's ours. It was a short she wants fifty thousand pound for ! And because that one even if we didn't rule out it says fifteen forty. Mm. And it seems for the churches we'd then be looking up to point forty perc , fourteen percent for fifty thousand pounds. A , actually John was suggesting that we might talk nicely to John's dad about the money they've got invested in the sale of their pro , their ground. I don't know how far we'd get but er it's worth looking at. The only thing is though, I mean, you see but I think the church itself and I would say the church as the group now Mm. would be looking at that as a more meaningful contribution to . Mm. Well what else can you talk ? So to be able to the sweepstake in the past another church and they could be, they could be on the interest you know, the amount towards running costs such as this. Well, to me running costs wouldn't be and the cost of towards borrowing a house is the same way you know. Well exactly! The point is that looks very nice . Yeah. You know, but I mean if the church cannot find contributions it really can't ! Well you see , like like . Exactly! Yes well erm we're still going to have to talk about it with the elders you see. Sorry, what did you say? We're still going to have to talk about with the e , with the With the joint elders group. Yes, yes, yes, yes Erm Quite right! which meets on Monday. Er so I might be in touch with you after that. Oh right. But I mean even now you can you can read that thing out to me. Yes. I mean, that, that was you er goals, you know. No, no messing, I mean I did that ages ago and I, i , it just arrived! I think I was already in . Did you have a good holiday by the way? Lovely holiday, thank you. But I wa but I was there for a fortnight and when I came back I, you know it's preparing for Synod just takes all the time we have somehow and I Oh yes. I I was only off the plane just last week I'd better have a look at this Yeah. dear, dear, dear! Just a mi , matter of interest where do you come from because on this dictionary thing I'm supposed to put down what people's local accent is? Ah, that's good! Only Oxford, no I'm, mine is in in inexplicable because I've lived in so many places and I pick up accents! I was born in Lancashire, so that's Mm. the basis of it all. I've had the roughest edges knocked off it when I went to University. And the , but then I went to live in Northern Ireland so I've got a so picked up a fair bit of Northern Ireland. Yes well, it does happen when, whe Cos it's a hybrid, it's an old It it does happen when you move around. Yeah it does. In I think it happened to me to some extent. Well it does, if if if you pick up accents, some people never change! That's true. some people, doesn't matter where you go they never change! But, if you are at all I mean yo , you, I think you pick up reflections. Mm. You know, I haven't been consciously stru , striving to change my accent. In fact, you know I'm consciously now not to become a Welsh accent because if I've got the Welsh accent added to it all it'll be horrendous! But er Right. I have Yeah. isn't it? Yes. It's at least distinctive! It is. On the notice you sent out the other day for Monday's meeting Yes. I think you put a paragraph first that said maybe we will need to consider our recommendation Yes. and the, of course, you went onto to number one the man's two er, group secretary who draws it out I forgot what the other one was. Yes. Maybe in some thing which at the moment is that the be number one. Er which wo , which one you mean, the Well tha tha that number one be the question on recommendation. I see! Oh yes! Well I was thinking that. Yeah. But it really is, it might have got lost in the paragraph mighten it? Cos when the comes underneath. I see what you mean. It isn't being critical at all but on this position situation that might the first thing that we Oh yes, I was assuming that erm a I do , I didn't really set it out as a formal agenda just as a Just as a note a reminder, like. Erm I don't know what the situation will be in the other churches. Mm. And I must say between us at the moment there wasn't a strong feeling what it's all about. Not a strong feeling in favour? No? No, I'm only saying as prepared with Mm. . Well erm I mean, this is nothing to do with a don't worry that's we don't want them thinking that the house is the issue cos it isn't, alright? The house what rate is ? Yes. Whether there are the No I thi which erm we had an elders meeting on Thursday and between Sunday and Thursday various people have comments and people along Mm. on Saturday or Sunday erm there was erm a tale at the elders meeting on su , subversion and overall feelings erm erm that we wouldn't . Oh! That's a pity! Yeah well that's erm, I mean, the only talking is between us at the moment it's just, you know, . If, of course, on Monday that's a vote, a recommendation is taken Mm you know we would accept a reco , whatever the Monday's meeting was. Yes. We we wouldn't mean sticking out of the wood and saying no . Yeah but In fact, report back just all about meeting and say Bu , but o , on the other hand yo you've got to se you've to er give the information that you have about the feeling in the church! Yes. In fact we i it would expressed interest it will be expressed a week on Monday. Yes. Erm I mean I I, I don't know, I mean i it's not not, it's not my business to even look Oh yes. one way or the other! I , it's simply my business tosortof help the works. See, mm it that's true yes. That if it's as well well before the meeting Monday because at the end of the day you know we, we gotta look at the matter going forward isn't it? Yes. You know is going forward to a week on Sunday and then whatever else happens we're going through the process aren't we? And having this all come on Monday thinking that everything is we gotta to the church we're feeling well if we don't go through now, where do we go? Well I don't I don't think that should influence them too much. I mean it one wants to get a settlement quickly Mm. but it's more important to get the right person than to do it Well cer quickly. well certain things like John there Mm. a number of people Mm. and then what's it amount to? If I use the word aggression. Yes. I mean they It just came over in his sermon on Sunday morning! It's cos I wasn't for that. Weren't you? No. Still he quoted that he'd dealt with in his past. Mm. And people felt there was an aggressiveness a about him! Mm. And in trying to bring these four churches together it would be a li you know, not . A lot of tact may be needed at times, yes. And you could see them all so nervousness anxiety that I wasn't told about. And unfortunately this First can we have you back in the church ! we've had this problem in the past with John ! And with makes Ooh! Ooh! makes you wo wary Mm mm and cautious! Yes well erm I mean you can't help being aware of past experiences. Everybody back in the church There again please in two minutes ! in getting, trying to bring the four together again Starting again in two minutes ! Mm. Back in you'd wanna make sure yo the right role of leadership is needed and er certainly this helps in that as well. Even when . Er just more negative . Well that seems to be the mood . Well what the church meeting's got to decide the church meeting will have to! It's the church meeting's final decision. I mean even if, even i , even if the elders recommend positively if the church meeting goes against it, well that's it! . But erm on the other hand we we've gotta try, as a group of elders to come together I Mm. must admit. To see what goes. Erm, some of us may go to tomorrow and Mm. That'd be a good idea, I think! Perhaps in some way, yes. Erm I I feel by going to cos sometimes they're more involved than these days. Than, than in talk with God Yep. yes. Well not, that isn't how it but Oh no, I know what you mean. and I got a greater kinship because they're a small group. Mm. And I go there every month. Mm. So, you know, I do feel quite involved in what they're doing and they're they will readily come and share with you. Nice! You know? And we'll see, we'll see what goes. And I, I thought it's where we've we could share the minutes together before Monday's meeting. Right, well In , in this situation we've all and again the who implication, not only Wrexham but . Oh yes! Er but we we wasn't sure for North Wales that it's the type ! Mm. What is the right situation? You know basically, by enlarge we don't know. Right well We will see you se , seven thirty on Monday isn't it? Yes yes I'm Then it's then it's Friday again afterwards? Okay, all the best! Er, it's er, Kevin isn't it? Yes. Yes, Kevin Kevin er I don't know whether but she's none too well! Ah Oh I'm sorry! Erm I'm trying to find somebody about getting this put right. Mm. But she's had meningitis back which is a bit tricky for old health! Mm. So whether she'd like some, I don't know. Right. Hello! In our last meeting John the need to do a little thing that would the district but I felt that because of the time pushing that wha , what's his name has said about the erm the River Yes. adventure was probably enough that erm I would have flown a kite and one or two things otherwise! So I felt because the time was pushing, passing so much, and the Yes that was . and I naturally er I thought Chris gave a good report! When's, yeah Well it was practically the same as he did at district wasn't Yeah. it? Yeah. Oh it's very articulate, very good! Mm. I didn't know he was gonna be here . Erm oh well maybe yours can be saved up for another time? Mm. That's it! . Mind you don't step on the ! Oh I'm sorry! No I didn't like to go and step on the ! Er can I hang this up and no , so as not to take it into the church? Where can I Well where , where do you wanna hang it up? Ooh sorry ! Sorry ! Here we are put it there. Yeah. Right. Alright ? Woops! Thank you. Thank you very much .? If I forget it, it's not desperate but I'd like to take it. What, are you taking it ? Ah, switch it off. Right, that goes in upside down like that.
Moderator and friends let me say first of all that I'm glad to be able to make these speeches on behalf of the member churches of and I'd like to also on, particularly on behalf of the England and Wales , though I did realise having said that that you have a minister of the University of Penryth is also a member of this Synod, and therefore, you've got me three things! Er I greet you greet you on on behalf of these. And, but I, I'm glad to make a greeting from a, a wide range of churches erm, I've got to discard this figure because I've got . But including churches that are, Orthodox church and the Lutheran Lutheran churches in Wales and now hopefully, during this year some sanctity churches in Wales. And so that there will be a a broad spectrum of people who with us confess a common faith, serve a common Lord and proclaim about our gospel serving within this number of people in Wales and therefore I'm glad to bring you greetings for that reason. I'm glad to bring you greetings because I think you serve a particularly unimportant purpose! When, when I was asked to comment be before John was, was ever elected erm is that you elect moderators from e , whatever happened to a moderator! Be before you were chosen by whatever process a number of us was asked to comment and one of the things I felt it important to say was that the URC plays a very important role both in being a bridge between all these nations but also serving a particular reform tradition within Wales. And that this larger responsibility, having more local responsibility combined in one small church is an important role. But I think that came through in this morning's conversation. And I'm glad also to to to greeting, it's my last part John, if you'd like to know! Erm be because out of that debate this morning I sense you have much to offer the rest of us and I hope that that conversation will not be a conversation confined your Synod or to the to the assembly of URC but that we'll find ways of sharing that perception of ministry with those of us in other churches cos you don't need me to tell me, tell you that that key question in the whole ecumenical debate, not just in these nations but worldwide and I think that from within this reform tradition in which I share I will hope that we will find ways of offering that perception of ministry, in all its forms as erm, a symbol and a sign of the ministry of the whole people of God we have that to offer the churches in Wales and worldwide and I hope that we can find ways of doing that. And for those reasons and for the fact that I, more or less enjoyed the journey and had to come anyway as a chauffeur! Thank you Noel. We move to the Ecumenical group, it's on page number fourteen? Page four on page four. Thank you moderator. Having read the Synod class letter I will assume you haven't acted on it and therefore rule, resolution one. You will see this report for debate. Not half! If there are no questions on the paragraphs of the report not covered by resolutions Are there any questions or comments on paragraphs one or three, or four onwards? No. In that case resolutions. I then resolution two which is continuing the process that we were introduced to the last Synod and the previous Synod consideration of the endless discussion document on Christian initiation. I hope! , anybody wish to speak to this in will you any visitors? Silence! the resolutions before you and the second, the working party and to consider and coordinate from to endless . All those in favour. Any against? I think it's important also that having done that that also replies the eagerness and activity in which it was Ha! about the whole process of Christian initiation. I mean, having done that we haven't yet set up a working party and let the rest of the world forget about us! As one seems possible. Number three please. Resolution three concerns the agreed procedure and service for the ordinat , the electoral statement held as a United, United Reform Presbyterian Church of Wales churches. I all had hoped to be able to bring before you a final draft of th the service it has not yet finally been passed by the Presbyterian Church of Wales therefore, discussions on what form and how it will be printed have not yet taken place. So you've got the latest draft, with the latest amendments those of you who have taken one to se , look at it. If you haven't I assume you trust the URC doctorate worship committee and ecumenical at home committee and the group! Oh ha! ! Absolute ! I am happy to let those erm tra , procedures of the electional, ordination and induction of elders in joint URC Presbyterian Church of Wales . Yes? Question? Yes, only one question I've got please. Er, erm Under the line! Oh Sorry! I di
Within the next, er month or so a national consultation is being held within the URC to consider the advice of producing a programme of training for eldership which will be used throughout the call of the church and if there are any suggestions or any proposal that anyone would like to make I shall be very glad to receive them within the next month. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? And you . Yes, but I'll try to be brief. As I understand things, and I work from what I know to what I don't know anyone ordained an elder following these guidelines is recognised as an elder within the United Reform Church and within the Presbyterian Church of Wales. As a result of that, and I think to make sure this is something we would have to ask the advisory committee but I would read it that that includes mutual recognition of eldership. And so in my That it would yes. But I'd want to consult the giant advisory committee before putting that into print. Yo , that's an important question that comes as a we can attempt or the group can attempt to answer that question the in reports of the next so we don't lose it off the agenda. Yes. Would that be fair? Yes. I'll just put that aside. All in those in favour of the resolution that we commend to these to the church we agree the procedure for the election of ordination and induction of elders in and in churches. Please show? Any against? Actually I've rather hurried through that objective part of our I only had my time to bring before you one other very important issue and two other pieces of information. There are a few copies remaining of newsletter. There's also information about the International Ecumenical Fellowship which is something that you as an individual can do to support ecumenical work. If you want to know more about it, pick up a leaflet. If, we have run out of leaflets pick up John ! Because he is a member and he can tell you about it. The most important thing in this report is from the Council of Churches for Britain and Ireland and it's a resolution that they passed on Northern Ireland. You should have this received this in the pew when you came in this morning. The reason it is important today is because tomorrow has been requested to be appointed to be a special day in prayer for peace justice in Northern Ireland. Like this resolution I would urge all of you when you go back to your congregation those ministers who are following the moderator's request, those ministers from the South who will not be conducting morning worship tomorrow because of the long journey request whoever is conducting worship to use this in the service in the prayers! Those of you who are here without ministers badger your minister! When you get back tonight or tomorrow to include this in your time and prayer in one of your services tomorrow. And don't let it stop there! A day of prayer is important as it changes our pattern of prayer and as it changes our concerns week by week and year by year. Some of the attempts at peacemaking the churches in Ireland are making may seem worrying may seem politically subversive but how will we respond to the longing for peace to the desire for reconciliation for the hope the stakes that will result in a permanent and just solution? I commend to you all this of prayer. And will move that this document be taken back to your local churches and used. We . We move to page five, the top half of page five and and Graham will introduce the world famous issue. Having cre , credit by David 's withering look I always say you have to be terrified! It's a bit I'm a spy! Oh, after all that it didn't work! It's at this point in our agenda when er the world search it's our agenda and er in introducing the report there are just four things I want to comment about. Er, I refer, first of all to the continuing links we have with the church in Hungary and to remind that there is a, a party of young who are currently negotiating the er, visit to Hungary at this present time. And er, we would hope that that programme of reciprocal visits will continue over the ensuing years. We also find there are, and I hope that you will read it carefully, because I think you will find it a fairly daunting report which comes from Hugh who has managed, you know, has been working, erm, in er, Romania with the Bishop erm, who more or less, kind of, started off the, or whose work started off the the revolution that took place in Romania. Within that report he tells us erm, the rather startling disturbance story, that in fact it almost suggests, has been suggested the revolution hasn't happened because the situation has continued as before with a different name but basically with the same er with the same kind of programme intact. And in the creation of unity, unity there's deep concern about the status of American churches in Romania and obviously the Hungarian church in Romania is affected by that whole process so I would urge you to read that letter to remember the work of Hugh erm and to be aware of, of what the situation is in that part of the world. It seems important that I should have links, in developing links you ought to see that as part of our agenda. Hugh, himself I think he is completing his work and there, in, in a few months time and I know there have attempts made to find someone to replace him. As yet er, that has not been possible, but if you knew of anybody, young person who you thought might be suitable and might mi , might like the challenge of an interesting venture of this nature I'm sure if you let us know, or let the moderator know we'll be very happy to, er, suggest that name or see if there's any, any possibility erm, in continuing that . We also feel it's important that we should be doing just a bit more than just having exchanges, that there is a whole process of that needs to go on. There's an assumption by some politicians that just because there is this immense change taking place in Eastern Europe, that this is victory for Western capitalism erm, I think there might be some of who might be a bit cautious about that victory and might believe that er there is still much that needs to be shared and understood and it isn't as simple as perhaps some political figures might suggest it could be. So I want to, first of all, in presenting this report to remind you of the importance of that link and for us to encourage its development. Secondly, the World Church erm is your agenda in the sense that you might be interested to know there is a erm a video now available, er which introduces the work of CWM for the churches. And that video can be obtained from Tavistock Church, in Tavistock Place it costs twelve pound fifty, with one pound fifty postage erm, but I think that it has been recommended to us and a number of the provinces have asked for copies to be made available and then maybe there are some churches within our provence that might like to have that video so that they can draw the attention of their churches to the work of the Council for World Mission. Thirdly, we will in a moment be hearing a report erm, about the World Council of Churches assembly which took place in Canberra so there is another aspect to the World Church hitting our agenda today. But fourth, and I think it was reflected very much in the discussions this morning just to simply remind you that you are the World Church! You know, we sometimes think of the World Church as being something that's out there beyond us, but we are the World Church aren't we? We're we are part of the that process and it's it's sometimes encouraging for us to remember that there are small denominations, small groups like us around the world who are struggling to make their Christian witness real in their particular context. And it's important that the kind of story that we're being told this morning, or to continue to be told, we are to continually hear and observing stories because they are encouraging it does make us feel that even though we are a small denomination that does not stop us from preventing new ideas which we can share and in which we can learn from each other. So, I would hope that out of this experience of this morning you will continue to er let some of those stories come forward and, and let us hear them and let us share in them. And, with those comments moderator, I'd like to present the er report of the World Church, Church and Mission. Are there any questions, either on the report or in what ? Then it gives me great pleasure now to erm I always knew that John al , has had something different from the rest of us you know he has that kind of air doesn't he, that that status in the pulpit which you know, ? And of course, I've now discovered what it is, he's a distant relative of the Archbishop of Wales. There was always er there was always something there! There was just something about his daring . that's alright then. I'm not gonna do that John. Erm, I'm I'm never sure about Bishops and Archbishops, erm I remember Archbishop Runcie once commenting about er, an activity that took place at the installation of a Bishop and it's, I gather, I mean I've, I haven't actually been to one, but if you're Bishop or an Archbishop when they act to the triumph and act of installation took place there were you'll find that the person was surrounded by Bishops and they were all sort of looking in on this er, this body that was gonna be installed and somebody once asked what are they doing? Ar , Archbishop Run , Runcie said well it's just simply an operation to remove their backbone! Erm I don't know! I would like to er say that we are very grateful today to be able to welcome amongst us his grace erm, the most reverent Alwyn who has just recently been elected as the Archbishop of Wales. We're delighted that you have found time out of your busy schedule and timetable to come and spend time with us today and we're very glad that you are able to do so and I would ask er, John, our moderator if he will receive me now and invite you to address our . Well, first of all may I respond positively to those kind words of welcome that you extended to me. At least, I feel at home. I won't say any more! Some of you may have listened very attentively to the, to a programme that put o , was put out a week ago I think, with Betty er, in Welsh and er some of you therefore, will know something my background. Er last year and time has flown hasn't it? Last February, twelve months last February I'm, I was privileged to travel to Canberra in Australia fortunately not on my own, because there are wi , witnesses. Er There were seven of us from Wales er and two of them are present here this afternoon. Noel was present and presenting the Welsh independence in and also Gethyn was present erm I'd like to see, er, know that Gethyn was representing the Church in Wales apart from the fact that he's also a baptist. Er, as you know, Gethyn does work for the Church in Wales now and this, in a special way, is a testifies to the fact that he is er an ecumenical person. Working ecumenically in Wales. He is also a secretary of Envis that is the commission of covenant to churches of which we are all members of churches. Yes, I er I went in February nineteen ninety two and certainly this was a great privilege to be there for, was it, three weeks? Three weeks I think er spending time with members of other churches and also members of others cultures from all over the world. The er I've got to keep an eye on my watch, this is what I'm going by! It's a more than anything else. I know that you are behind schedule and I don't want to incur the wrath of your moderator! During the, the fortnight in which we met in Canberra eight hundred and twenty six of us were official delegates er, to the World Council of Churches. Delegates from the member churches. And, in a sense the World Council of Churches at this point can be regarded as the supreme legislative body of the World Church. And you're quite right er we must regard the World Church as meaning ourselves. We tend to refer to the World Church as something outside our particular constituency and we mustn't forget that we must own the World Church. And this is something that came home to me very much in Canberra. We we are from Wales and I would like to say that all the Welsh representatives were at one. That we could own what was going on in Canberra. This was not entirely true of other people from other churches in the United Kingdom unfortunately! The World Council of Churches assembly takes pla , place roughly every seven years. And though the World Council Churches was formed before the second world war yet, the first assembly was not held until nineteen forty eight at Amsterdam! Second assembly was held in nineteen fifty four at Edmunston in the United States. And then it was fir , er, the turn of the third world the third assembly was held in New Delhi in nineteen sixty one. And then, the fourth assembly er, was held in Loopsala Sw in Sweden and the fifth assembly was er, held in Nairobi. And then er, the sixth assembly in Vancouver in nineteen eight three and the seventh assembly in Canberra, last year. Now, you'll see that it has a tendency to go all over the world wherever it is invited but whoever invites the World Council of Churches now must, in fact, be able to cope with a great number of people! Not only delegates but also people who attend as a service from other churches outside the membership of the World Council and also to cope with the press. Unfortunately, in this country we were badly served by the press! And it had, it'd be true to say that whatever you read in your newspapers er, while we were in Canberra, I would advise you not to believe half of it! Or a quarter of this! Because what came back to us was very much tittle tattle gossip that people picked up in er, Canberra! And, it is true to say that that did not represent the what really went on in Canberra! Because, above all, it was an experience experience of meeting people from different churches wi experience of meeting people of different cultures experience, too, of listening attentively and worshipping with people of different church traditions of your own. And that was something to er an experience to cherish! The World Council Churches on this occasion reviewed the work accomplished during the seven and a half years since the last assembly in Vancouver in Canada. It rec , received a report therefore, from the Central Council of the World Counc , Council of Churches which meets I think, once a year Noel can correct me on this once a year, or a at least once every two years. And then we have a member from Wales on the Central Council of the World Council of Churches, Miss Carole who er, although she is from Wales, member of the church of Wales she now lives in Belfast. But er, we were not successful in putting up an er and er to have a member of Wales elected on this occasion to serve for the next seven years unfortunately! And er i , it, this caused a great deal of hurt, if I may say so? And then the er Council also set guidelines for it's programme in the years ahead. It also chose presidents, it also chose, a hundred and fifty members to serve on the central committee, or the executive committee of the World's Council of Churches. It also made statements on pressing issues in the church and the world. And these, above all else included the Gulf war because this war was on while we were in Canberra. And this really owed a great deal of tension! We er, the we, we have also to make statements on the indigenous people and land rights because we were confronted with the position of Aborigine people in er, Australia. And we were concerned about their land rights or in other words, their human rights their natural human rights. I'll speak about that in a moment or two. We were concerned too about internal conflicts in certain countries and especially in South Africa. But all these statements revealed the desire of the assembly to pray more ardently for the spirit of unity to reconcile people. Indeed, this was a very rare opportunity for all delegates and visitors, as I said, to meet to listen yes, and to hear it first hand about the life and witness of more than three hundred member churches throughout the world in a hundred countries! It was certainly and opportunity for the churches together to look at the world situation in conversation together and thus, to deepen the faith which have to proclaim at arriving at a common understanding of the situation. It isn't the you are not expected, at least, I was not expected to to see the Council producing masses of pages for our reading afterwards and this report, by the way, is worth reading. Sounds of the spirit. If you had read this I shouldn't be here this afternoon! But are we going to inflict that on you? But, can I say this that what mattered most to me was the fact that I have been in conversation with so many people and to be able to allow that conversation to affect my faith and a faith that I have to proclaim day by day and Sunday by Sunday from the pulpits of my church. As previous as in previous assemblies worship wasn't central to our activity. Besides, morning worship there were midday sermons and in sessions together with evening worship. What I missed most at this occa , on this occasion was the opportunity for bible study, but I think getting pe er, a visitor of another kind there was able to visit some of the bible studies each morning. The daily pattern of study and discussion work was divided into two parts in the morning, participants met in small groups in the afternoon, all members met in session sessions reports from central committee and also er, reports on developments in the World Church. The main theme of the assembly, therefore, was the prayer come holy spirit renew the whole creation. . Appertaining to a to infuse through dramatic presentic presentations the main theme by the or aboriginal of Australians telling about their life and struggle. Other Ecumenical topics presented were the life and history of ecumenical movement you retain and justice and peace ecumenical sharing. and indeed, the recent programme justice, peace and integrature of creation featured very prominently in our discussions. And no doubt, it will continue as a very important theme for the future. Some themes of the assembly therefore were giver of life sustain your creation spirit of truth set us free spirit of unity reconcile your people Holy Spirit transform and sanctify us. What about the background, therefore to the assembly's discussion? But first of all the global situation in the Gulf. This marred the peace situation! Plane flights had to be diverted so, by the time we got to Canberra we were very conscious of the destructive element of the Gulf in our prayers and in our discussions. Secondly, we were made aware of the effects of what can be described as liberation thinking and liberation theology not only in South America but only, also, in the Pacific regions Asia, Japan and Korea. Then there was the influence of the third world, or the two thirds world the churches the politics and the cultures. And then fourthly, more and more the orthodox churches placed, played a very significant part in guiding the port of as far as as the assembly was concerned. Significantly to, there was the abstinence of Roman Catholic church influence and dominance. Some of us, some of us tried to make a plea and I hope we will try, still try to make a plea that there should be a significant Roman Catholic er, element within the membership of the World Council of Churches in the future. So we were presented, as it were, with a partial membership of the World Church. As far as I'm concerned two things set the assembly in context firstly, the sense of space. For many Australians the desert which covers much of their country means a vast emptiness solitude and the struggle to survive in hostile surroundings. But, for the original inhabitants of the lands the desert is the familiar place that provides nature and gives meaning to life. It was natural, therefore, that the assembly should take up this kind of understanding. It was not too late to realise that space should be given in the programme for a proper consideration of the perception of winning in relation to the whole team of the assembly. Winning space therefore assumed a significant part of the assembly programme. Again, as I said, the Gulf war brought the peace question very much into the arena and accordingly there was always the pressure for prece , reconsideration of the peace under the general heading of peace space. And, can I suggest that we need to bring that very much into our discussions and into our prayers constantly in our churches. Significant that we have been challenged by our master to be peace makers how real is that in our churches? And tomorrow will be the real test, won't it not? That we are really praying for peace and identifying ourselves with peace struggle in Ireland. Secondly, there was also the context of the Aborigines. We were reminded of their plight at the opening service of the assembly. One thing I forgot to bring with me this afternoon was a tape of the assembly worship I'm sorry about that, but I don't think you've got a tape recorder have you? That upsets me! We were reminded of their plight of peace, as I said, at the opening service. Outside the marched in the aborigines had their fire of gum tree branches to purify the atmosphere very much like the flames of fire which appeared on the first whit Sunday. The twenty sixth of January seventeen eighty eight the British established a small prison community at Sydney Cove on the east coast of Australia villain read the declaration and hoisted the Union Jack claiming the east coast of the entire Australian continent for the British crown. And that meant quite a effect as far as the aborigines were concerned they had lost their territory! The aborigines were not consulted or compensated! European occupation of land gradually extended through most of the continent. In more remote areas reserves were set aside for the igi indigenous hab , inhabitants. They were sa , put aside, they did not count! But by the end of the nineteenth century there were six British colonies in Australia! On the first of January nineteen hundred and one they formed a federation and most adult aborigines were vote in the process for deciding on the federation. The culture of the minorities of indigenous people that was given providence at the assembly. And this was expressed in a very imaginative presentation by Professor a young in her keynote lecture when she called for three significant changes. The first was that for our generation we must learn how to live with the earth promoting harmony sustainability and diversity and, therefore, creation, spirituality was the keynote of the address. Secondly she said there must be a change from the habit of dualism to, what she described as interconnectialism We must see a relationship between things. In many parts of the earth, she said, the organised life in accordance with a sense of dualism body, spirit, man, women, black and white, poor and rich we must try and see them, in Christ coming together. They all make sense. The third change was from the culture of death to the culture of life. What is happening right now in the Persian Gulf, she says, shows the best example of the culture of death! She urged the assembly to use the energy of the Holy Spirit to tear apart all walks of division and culture of death in separators. Let us participate in the Holy Spirit of of life fighting for our life on this earth in solidarity with all living peace. Have you noticed if you listen hard to your radio tomorrow morning and you will hear so much about suffering and death and very little about life! I think we had better try and influence that as churches not that we should about the suffering that goes on about the death that goes on, but I think we ought to give all this another dimension in churches. That one would be thankful of the fact that Christ has spoke and talked about life. Now, this approach was criticised by the Orthodox church representatives as merely criticism an attempt to unify different faiths. But many of us saw it as an approach which emphasised the need to allow the faith of Christ to be incarnated within particular culture and Sir Paul , the former Archbishop of New Zealand took the same stand point as a Maori, in his own address and called delegates present to speak and act as people of hope and to respond sensitively to economic and environment progility and isolation, not only in the Pacific but wherever they are. Now then who do we assess with the assembly? May I make one or two observations and then I'll finish. On the whole, the assembly gave us and understanding of the worldwide church which was struggling to achieve reconciliation and to promote peace and justice. If we belong to the World Church then we must be in with part of this worldwide process and we shall never be ashamed of it. Secondly, moreover, it was an experience a and an opportunity to meet Christians of other churches. Differing traditions and those of other cultures and be in constant dialogue with them. We never have that opportunity in this country do we? Unless we ask people to bring in people, for instance, from the Afro- Caribbean churches to join us in our worship and to lead our worship. Can I also say that, er yes, we were badly served by the press but I think that er the onus now is on those of us who went to Canberra to be able to share with others and we have been going round to tell others about Canberra to share with you and with others the experience of being present in the World Council of Churches in Canberra. I would hope that by the time we come to the next assembly where there is going to be that there will be an opportunity for the churches, er, at home here to take part in preparing for the next assembly. Also, that the churches at home, of whatever church or denomination we are to be they also can own, not just in the World Council of Churches. At present, I do think that there is that kind of willingness to be er, engaged in this kind of preparation. I think, we ought to be taking time to try and prepare, well for the next assembly and in doing so to own what goes on there and to say, yes as the previous speaker said we are the World Church in a very real way. Now, moderator I've taken yes I'm only five out of the programme! Er, can I say that it's been a great pleasure coming er, to you and to say that erm that there's far more to say, of course, about Canberra er, but I hope that that taster will help you to try and appreciate what went on there. Thank you very much indeed. Can I thank you for sharing with us the the example of the concentration, that you put so much in such a short time. A good example for the rest of us! We've got the rest ! We're grateful for your taking the time to be with us. We're grateful to your commitment to the ecumenical life of churches in Wales particularly. Last week we met as a team, working with and next week we will be meeting . So it'll be Hollywell to get , it's a good way of ! And for your your time and your energy and for your fellowship as well. It's very kind of you all Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes. You're willing to, you're welcome to stay for as long as you wish or to leave when you wish to leave. to us. We ought now to think briefly about . is never to show any interest in anything because, if you do you get landed with what I've got to do this afternoon! And it was my concern that churches should know the implication of the children act as it's related to the life of the church that I'm landing in front of you. You should of all saw the last Synod papers received this. How many of you are familiar with it? There are a few hands. I've got a red and a blue, I'm sorry I haven't got yellow and green but I couldn't get the political parties. It's not electioneering er, they're just in different coloured paper to please the eye. Er, if you have not had a copy of this sent to you what I have said to them, by what I say afterwards erm it will be worth purchasing. My question ha , again another question, how do you make the Lord interesting?
Shoppers creche that must er, registered. What does registration mean? It means that when you go along to the social services, register and it's above board children's work that you are doing. But they have a right within the law to carry out, to check all persons who are offering help in caring. And registration may be denied anyone who has been convicted of any certain types of offense. It's the responsibility of the local authority to ensure that all those leading groups are people of good standing. The church must make every effort to achieve the highest standards. And the church as bible road to fame in alerting us to our responsibilities. Now there's one thing that I have to alert us all to the rest may not have been important, perhaps only to some of the larger churches but groups are advised and churches are advised to make sure that in buildings that are used ah, for many different groups that young children under the age of eight do not come into contact with any casual people who may be using that building. Now that is quite an implication when you think about it! There is need to emphasise the importance of encouraging people to re , receive some sort of training when they come forward and offer to be involved in the work of our under eights and young people. I don't think there's any need for me to spell out any more at this point what that may mean but the responsibility in as churches to ensure that we care for the under eights. I will, in fact erm answer any questions afterwards. Thank you Nanette. An introduction that is important. There are a number ar , of areas in the ma state legislation that have been aligned to the church, or will affect the running of the church. One is the children act one will be something on on on the preparation of food, another will be one affecting the way in which charities have to keep registered accounts er, financial accounts which means that an example erm is responsible for registering the accounts of congregations by law. And another will be erm the responsibility to er, the minister, the alterations to listed buildings which might be landed on the, on the churches. What Nanette has said has been an important introduction and if yo , if what sa you have prepared altogether is legible then perhaps give it to Eileen and it can go out in the Synod papers that will be helpful. Erm, and in the faith and life department of URC we'd better preparing a pack on the children rights. Other information on whatever . We move now we move now to er, faith and life is on we're on page thirty five. moderator and friends of faith and life. In the very short space of time that we have available this afternoon there are three subjects that I need simply to bring to the attention of Synod. The first the little report under the heading of faith and life, on page five of your reports the second is the report of the provincial advocate which is on page six and the third, the report of the Youth Secretary which is on page twenty. Erm all those because subjects come under the general umbrella of faith and life, and I think er, moderator, probably the correct thing is to do is to be formal and to begin by er, proposing that these three reports be received for discussion. Then I'll receive the reports of faith and life and the Youth Secretary and the new secretary for discussion, yes. Thank you. Er, to take then first the report which you will find on page five you will see that faith and life on this occasion has concentrated on one subject and that is our weekend that we are arranging this summer as we have done annually for a number of years. Er, there is a a little orange leaflet which has been placed on the seats during the day that many of you, I hope, already have er, for anyone who hasn't may I perhaps place these on the front table, there's a the , there's another supply over there and, could I please ask that some responsible representative from each district would please take a few more of these away with you so that they are distributed in district meetings in the near future, and attention drawn to them there er, if there are not enough copies er, then I'm sure the provincial office on receiving a, a request from you will make sure there's more that passed on to you. Now, if you had an opportunity of glancing at the leaflet already you will have seen that the leader for this July's er, weekend is is Mr Henry and, I don't think I can do any better than to spend two minutes of the time that we've got in asking Henry if he would say a word or two of introduction to the theme for this year. Ignatius of Loyal er or er, more properly known to me in church history was the scourge of the wrath of the, of the council of reformation and inside of consumism but I think regards some years ago in on Ignatius spirituality of bibles which I'm delighted to see John has mentioned in his prologue for the er for his introduction to Holywell the the the association's there came to discover who Saint Ignatius er, helping to sort of tap greater spiritual depths and er resources and consequently trained as spiritual director er in Ignatian things. The spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyala have once, were once described as a sort of a spiritual from which people of past men, put together again. Erm that is not the aim of Trabecca Er, to start off with they do the full spiritual exercise of Ignatius Loyal all takes thirty days in silent retreat with a with an individual er under individual guidance with a, with a, a director or it could take anything from nine months to eighteen months to do in er day da da da living in open sort of retreat. What I hope to do is simply to share with you the life of Idigo and in experiences and to walk alongside him and also to help us reflectively to look and examine our own journey where are we with God? Where's God in our life, where has he been and where is he directing us? And so it'll be a gentle, I hope and er, reflective type of weekend and er using some of the tools of Ignatius and other tools, cos Ignatius was very er, adaptable er, you know in in methods of prayer and reflection and contemplation. I, . Thank you. And I I, I hope that I, I hope there's a good variety of people will again, as you always have done will turn up er, this year to share fellowship a , on this theme which er, is is a refresh theme I think for, for many of us. Now, the other two subjects I'm really only dealing because the people responsible are, are not here in the flesh this afternoon but Alyd the provincial advocate and I I think of Bill that's also gone too, er yes he he has, he has had to leave this afternoon. Erm, so what I promised to do in er er, a moment or two if people are to ask specific questions or comments to make arising from either of those printed reports on page six and page twenty erm, if you would make your point or ask your question now er, it will be recorded and transmitted to the officers responsible and they will take any necessary action or give any reverent replies to those questions. This doesn't preclude any private questions in conversation with those people at any stage during the life of the church. So if, if there are any formal concerns that anybody would wish to bring formally before Synod and erm to either Alyd or Bill then perhaps state them. Right. Right, yes I shall happy to convey to the moderator that Synod was er totally satisfied with the reports that are here before me and give them one hundred percent support in the work . Thank you. Bill is is erm with the group of young people who are having a weekend in . Er, those were the people that walked in and walked out! We come now to the final committee report which is on page thirteen of the page thirteen. Did you want to stand up for a minute? Yes. While you're stood up while you're stood up have a second and well each worship, right? Come on stand up! Stand up! Up! Erm is Benny here? No. Well it's very simple, who knows the Peruvian Glory? Woops! Will you please come here with me. Erm, who else knows it? thank you. Anybody else know it? So this is how it goes. I think so! I think it goes I'm not sure. Have we got an organ in here? Yes, I think . Okay, sing that. Glory to God, Glory to God Right. That's glory in the highest. glory in the highest The next line is to God be glory forever. To God be glory forever And then le lastly, line halleluja amen. halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen Are we there? You know it? Yeah. Okay and for the closing worship you will be the Oh! and the rest of you will be the people. Okay? So the sings the first line erm you know, Glory to God glory to God in highest and then you respond and then you sing to God be the glory, to God be the glory and you respond. And then you sing halleluja and we all sing halleluja, halleluja, halleluja okay? Glory to God, Glor Five seconds. . Erm Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest Right. Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen . Once more bit faster. Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen . High notes! Very good! Well I must admit I'm gonna have to present a finance report which is received by an overture. And first of all before we er we put the reports we , there are a number of er, there's one alteration and a number of er, additions obviously alteration or I should say a a an amendment is something an important place on page fifteen er, at the tope of the page referring to December nineteen ninety two I've put, which is agreed by GP committee with the exception of young these representatives, that we ask them to bring thirty pounds towards the cost that should be twenty five. That's the actual figure. Erm one difficulty with with giving a financial report is so many things seem to happen quickly and a erm apart from the fact that there was a, a major finance resources comes from we , as well you see that I have to tell you now these have been done on the red letter assembly side and you may want to alter one there er according to reform I see the cost per erm person attending is not a hundred and twelve pounds, but a hundred and fourteen pounds and that means that we have forty representatives we've got to try and find four thousand five hundred and sixty . Now, I hope I've got these facts right and I'm sure that not, that Eileen may correct me that er we have er forty hundred pounds in the budget, budget for this er the erm South Wales congregation has, has kindly erm given us grant of a thousand pounds and I understand from the secretary of con , Cardiff congregation , and he's also offered a thousand pounds I don't know whether we've got that yet? But then That will be, it is thousand so that's er that's three thousand four hundred short of a four by sixty. And what the difference is that er, we thought that you could have one young person per district and that they only have to pay thirty two pounds each, but I think these are only purely Yes, er, I have them for those who received that incorrect information from me, I must apologise erm young people who are going as delegates as representatives of their district must be treated as adult representatives and they have to pay full price. Er for , for people who are going to group and and, for any young people who are going observers there are special arrangements to be made which doesn't relate to our official represented district, I'm sorry about that! So that means that er, in th the total we do have to pay in some way or another, is four thousand pounds with sixty but we'll say we've already got three thousand four hundred, if all the for , forty people go and they pay twenty five pounds each, that's another thousand, so we've got a I think I've got it right, a , we're only a hundred and sixty short. Fairly reasonable! I hope we get that from somewhere. So er er that that is if we're up-to-date on the financial . Now, the most er, serious business the er, Ministry of Mission Fund nineteen ninety two and the Ministry of Mission Fund nineteen ninety three. At the meeting er, of the Financial Resources Committee that I attended on Wednesday the first thing we discussed was the er the giving so far, up to the end of February from the various provinces and we, by the end of February er, the total was up to thirty thousand pounds less than we required er which could mean that the end of the year it could be a hundred and eighty thousand pounds less than required but er of all the all the provinces, bar one have balances which could be used to make that up, so the money is fairly short and we're bear er, for pains, the ten and a half thousand from the first of July onwards for this year. Now erm i i in Wales, and I'm sorry to say, our figure er, we should of produced ninety thousand pounds and we provi , er, produced er, eighty three thousand two hundred and nine that means we are er, six thousand eight hundred down in two months! Now, we have a balance as it already tells you er, in er earlier in the paragraph of this paper that that we had a er balance of sixteen thousand pounds a , in the ministry last year so, if we knock sixteen thousand pounds what we're likely to be short of it seems to me we could end up being twenty four thousand pounds short at the end of the year. Now, there are quite a number of reasons for this and the good news, I think, that I bought good news again this morning is that presentations both about budgets er, and about what we do wi with the small churches is, er, could be some of our salvation. Question of budgets our I was almost said halleluja! If only, all our churches could do that we would really be getting somewhere! The biggest problem of all is that we can't look forward and that a lot of the problems, being problems are happening now, and happened since the er the first of January that should of happened they should of happened in th , in th , in the er at least the three months before the end of last year, if not more! So, er, we're getting people saying it's impossible to pay this even though they were asked if they could pay it at the the the time it was given sometime last July. Well that's one the other reason, of course we have got a large number of chur , very small churches in fact, looking at our mai , ministry figures nineteen ninety there were thirty churches that didn't pay anything to the maintenance and a lot of these, I think, maybe that both Gethwyn and Russell sorted out er who up on on those extremes that you get in a group that, that maybe feel they re that they really have nothing to, hardly anything to do with us they've don't receive ministry and why should that be, and after be asked each year, has to go up? And they see o I just wonder whether they just pile letters in the wastepaper basket! And therefore, if it can really come to this possibility of ministry a sort of, Young Farmers Club idea of getting themselves about that could be a a a a, a, a marvellous boost. So, the, the other thing which is er erm, a real problem, partly because of that, is, is when one talks about an increase in in giving, increase in percentage i , or a contribution of the church is in er, we were talking about twenty percent la , twenty one percent last year that would be alright if everybody gave twenty one percent! Those who did nothing, they can eas , easily increase their giving by twenty one percent, it's still the same! It means that the other people have to give more that's why some of the churches, I think they've found that their er, requests for their er er their er contributions, have gone up enormously! So, er, those are the pro , those are a lot of the problems that we are, we are facing now, will we really er will we end up at twenty four thousand down at the end of the year? That i , all I can say is that my, that's my best guess at the moment. We know there are some churches which er, will probably only pay quarterly, so they haven't paid yet, so that's money that's coming in. On the other hand we know there are some churches that are finding great difficulty in meeting er, what they've said they can and are doing their best to do it. So that's on the down side. So er, at the moment they're saying all I can see is that er, we would have to use up the whole of our balance, that's sixteen thousand and the twenty four thousand arrears. Now, that as the picture er, leads me onto the next er, stage which is what in ministry, er what can we do in nineteen ninety three? Erm a letter was sent to all district secretaries, who I think in mo , most cases sent these round to churches to see if we could get some idea from you as to what sort of increase in contributions could be possible for nineteen ninety three. That's quite difficult to do because where there's so many churches not being sure whether they're going to make it this year how can they say what's going to happen next year? On the other hand er, if we did what our friend from Cheltenham is doing we would have lo , we would be looking forward like that all the time we would have some idea. Now, I'm pleased to say we have had quite a number of of er replies from churches on what they think they can d , do. On the other hand, some of these er are good re positive replies and some of them, some are negative! And, it seemed to me that when I, as the er your representative on Provincial Finance Committee is asked to make a co , commitment for this, for this for er for nineteen ninety three I could say no better than what we had as out target this year and that was hard! Cos clearly we've only er reached something like five hundred, three thousand, four thousand er then it's gonna be a a big jump to get to the five hundred and forty! Now, nobody er er, a at this stage at the er Financial Resources Committee er, challenge us on this figure, I think we will just stage of of doing arith arithmetic of adding it up, but no doubt that the staff will be comparing what going to be, er what within a but have prepared for next year with what we're supposed to do this year and ours is an increase of another percent. We look at all the other conferences, the lowest after that was the Northern Provence which is in a very similar position to ourselves and they were offering a five percent increase. Er, a few others were offering seven to nine and most of the others were offering between ten and fifteen percent. So we're way down on all the others! so, that then falls three hundred thousand pound short of what is required to er, give ministers an increase to twelve thousand next year. There seem to be our two groups er, in one of our provinces and they say that the rich and poor but the rich er er are not so rich and others . That, in fact, er there are three provinces who are already now contributing more than anyone else that, they feel that the churches should go forward to try and raise the minister's to what was proposedly that the assembly last year, they should be paid thirteen thousand two hundred but in order to do that see another six hundred thousand pound raised and it is likely that this will be put as a challenge to the churches at assembly. Now if I could just remind you of what's happened at the Lyndford Haven er er, Synod, last March erm, the Financial Committee have suggested that we should go for a target of five hundred and ten thousand but er, this is we are not gonna be able to even start looking at the eleven and a half thousand if if er all the provinces do it for months and more and we, I think very bravely or foolishly whatever way you li , look at it, proposed that we should got to five hundred and forty thousand and it looks as thought we're gonna end up certainly nearer to five ten than five forty. Erm, but if we er are are going to en ensure that ministers can get er, at least twelve a of twelve thousand next year then we have to er erm there has to be further offers from provinces. As I say, there are three provinces who'd like to go further and than that be even er, more increases. Now, I have put down reports about the finance committee er as it were but I think the responses from the churches and districts sort of calculator will be there, we think that it would seem as though we should only offer the same amount as last year. But, I think if we have further discussions with churches and districts that we might see that we can break that a bit further for that reason when we come to er, come to the resolutions I would advise you er er propose a minor amendment with the second thing. But I think that er . We can now receive this report for the . Any questions or comments on paragraphs that are not erm relating to those ? So any questions or comments on paragraph one on page thirteen? Or paragraph two or paragraph three or paragraph five or paragraph that's it! Yes. So, if there are no questions or comments on those paragraphs erm we move to the other resolutions. be amended ? I think so, yes. Yes. Er, what I would like to propose the erm a a that resolution two of course, was put down at the time it had to be put down er, and is clearly going to be affected by, that it happened at the th the financial services in March and what I have suggested is that you might prefer this be a a a second resolution it is or and turn to the to add on the end of that resolution thus urging local churches to through their consultations with district treasurers and finance committee to increase their contributions to the Ministry of Mission Fund in nineteen ninety three in such a way that provincial commi , commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two . But th , the thing is that it looks as though it is going to be a fairly ongoing thing that's going to it may be well on certainly er a beyond assembly when we have to come to a conclusion, and therefore we ought to know the picture er, of, within reform churches far more clearly in giving more time. But, clearly we need to have the authority that the that er to having discussed to a form of . And, If I understand this now Mm. er, we have a choice the resolution before us, endorse the action taken by the provincial treasurer in the level of commitment he has made to the MMF fund in nineteen ninety three on behalf of the . And that commitment which Alan has made, I'm right Alan? Yes. Is a nought percent increase It's nought percent. over our commitment. Erm would you like to take that resolution first and make this a sort of a, an extra resolution Right, okay then. I think that will be that will be clearer. First of all if we debate now whether or not the Synod endorses the action taken by judicial moderator Treasurer. in the level of commitment he has made to the MMF fund of nineteen ninety three on behalf of the provence and we now know that that's a commitment, was a commitment of a nought percent increase. We'll debate that first. It's gotta be done first. Mm? David? Can I just clarify Stand up please! David , can I just clarify that this resolution now supersedes what is said in the report? No, er we're proposing that we just do, take this reso , in other words, if you endorse the fact that I say I I sa committed the But what do you say about Yes. the ones you've written down? Yeah, that's right, yes. The, because this report has been written three or four weeks ago before Alan was able to vet all the information. And in view of the information he had when he went to London for a meeting last Wednesday and that was when he consulted with other people deciding that he should offer a nought percent increase. Okay? So that's right. Erm, one can then . perhaps cure the provincial credit brought to us . And following that recommendation we accepted a rash amendment on the floor of . Increasing the commitment with the treasurer and not to be rash with it but the people understand people who are mostly killed in churches and and either way should not pass to amend a resolution for the Council . You're not with it ! at the er the ministry but maybe the ministry er will be . Could we not have er I think procedure is could we not have the er er resolution for the at first and now that a ministry is in motion? Erm I think we need to endorse the action taken by the judicial treasurer and then if we was then to go onto second bits, which is urging the churches to give five percent more than that in the past you could debate that se separately. Investigative procedure will follow and we keep the two things clear we're making the the treasurer is erm suggesting that this provence of the URC makes no , makes not to increase. There's no to increase over this year 's commitment. That's what we've proposed. Er Bob? I've got a question on Bob! does that mean that the assessment for each church will remain the same for a couple of years? Is that the er, is that the implication? Erm But does it still need, somehow No, I can't or other if the assessment will increase? It will vary because er erm er we we ac remember that we have a formula which will expose to what your er erm, nominated income was in previous years what the membership, you know, these have all changed so it could be i I wouldn't like to say it's exactly the same could be a bit of a problem! But also there you can ministers because minis er churches they count for more than two years stop being central funds and therefore, if we had too many churches that entered a third year of vacancy next year that puts more of a burden on churches with ministers. Mm. So i i it just depends on Thank you. May I ask one more thing? By, by very special Oh! ! Erm in order to meet a commitment which is the same as this year commitment then last here increasing last year because this year's commitment we will not reach this year therefore, we'll be into deficit! Therefore, to pay that commitment again the churches must be asked to give more and ask the treasurer to make a further commitment and the churches must find more again! So it can't be the same as in churches even if it stays in the profit? Any other comments? Keep them coming! to say from what we . Right. Cos I don't mind taking this action erm, I think the the thought is that I would like to propose that we have a word with the government. Because I think that they and that we can only say the same again next year when our own , everything goes up and, I think it's very sad that the church can't ! Is that a formal amendment? Yes it is. Is there a seconder to that formal amendment. Does anybody want to speak for that amendments now? That we add the words with sadness to the resolution? Could I, say also with sadness that in that that, yes things are going up but one thing isn't going up and tha , that's our membership. Yes. Mm. And that is as one of the members of, we have a I think we can afford to have member on the finance of churches who are called at the assembly of the URC who er Good, yes! in fact, erm anybody that says a lot of sensible things and says look if people are asked to er, to er increase their giving by nought percent that me , it probably means the church might have to be cos the membership has gone down! Mm mm. Thanks. Mm mm. The amendment to add the word with sadness to this resolution number two on page sixteen is before you those in support of the amendment that we add the words with sadness to the resolution please show. And those against the amendment please show. The amendment is carried. So the resolution before us now is that the Synod endorses english grammar writing ! Synod endorses with sadness the action taken by the provincial treasurer in the level of commitments he has made to MMF in nineteen ninety three. We'll be making that resolution. If there are no other further comments or questions set before you would you show if you're in favour of resolution two of page sixteen ? In favour? Those against? We now move to the erm sort of, two A which I will now as and this will be that Synod urges local churches through their consultations with district treasurers and the finance committee to incrus , increase their contribution to MMF in nineteen ninety three in such a way that the provincial commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two budgets targets sorry! Targets! I'll read it again that we, that Synod urges local congregations through their consultations with district treasurers and finance committee to increase their contributions to MMF in nineteen ninety three in such a way that the provincial commitment may be increased by fi , by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two targets. If anybody would like to speak. Could I just say a ? Yes. I think I should while you're putting the words in such a way so it wasn't a er, it wasn't thought that everybody just increased everything by five percent. But as I say the the people who did not five five percent er, therefore, others may not have given more! Others may give less because they've got a lot of members so that therefore it's so that the provence as a whole could be advised. And I would have thought us giving five percent and, and there are other provinces that are giving more will ensure at least the the on twelve thousand we pay next year and therefore, starting with eleven and half thousand we paid this year and that provinces and in ourselves went further than that it is possible . Not very good! Surely, John erm, at home would like today off fishing! . How much longer moderator can we in the Welsh provence accept being the poor relationship within the denominations? Indeed, how much longer can we expect the other provinces to continue carrying us? We are no poorer than some of the Mm. noble provinces! No. Because we hear great erm shouts, cackulations of joy from those provinces that can afford to increase their giving shouldn't allow us to sit on our morals! I think it's a great tragedy that Wales considers itself to be the poor relation within the United Reform Church and the answer can only lie within Wales! I can't come en , elsewhere we have to support this motion too! Any other comments? The motion is before that Synod urges local churches through their consultations with district treasurers and the finance committee to increase their contribution to MMF in nineteen ninety three in such a way that th , that the provincial commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two targets. For those in favour please show? And those against please show? And that's carried. So we move to resolution three on page sixteen. I think erm er I know there has been some discussion of I I about er and I put er, in this report I think all the documentation that the ministers and ministers that had already seen it and I've explained that the big issue is that er the URC, I think a weekly account o ah of all other informations has er, worked out very on the basis of five thousand and I was been tugging you pay your car off to get that and . The church in Wales er and and from a a survey of one church in Church of England in Hemel Hempstead, I discovered that their rate seemed to be about thirty two P per mile. You've got to work it out on the basis of ten miles not on the basis of five miles. I think also er, and this er, it may be that the er er URC does not want to be pushed round er, we got up er, to how many ministers this applies but I do know there are quite a number of ministers which who need their own cars a and a a at the church that pays the er, insurance, the road license and even something for the maintenance. Now, clearly if you were paid say six hundred pounds for that and you only did twelve hundred miles, you're getting fifty P a mile anyway! And they've got, I think the odds are that people are giving more perhaps er and that er, if they were paid at fifty four P per mile and and got how that would affect the churches er contributions they make? And therefore, er our proposal is that we should adopt the figures at the bottom of the page which are actually those which the the er er, Inland Revenue have recognised in ones where you don't have to er, put in a tax return for.. for . So resolution three isbefore you for discussion . Peter? I know I'm a ! Reading for our , I mean er, I supply my own car, my church has recognised that whether I'm probably if I pay the tax and the insurance erm and I just thirty two, thirty five that's but when I'm in business or I'm in provinces and I'm allowed to pay what, ten fifteen Fifteen. pence a mile? Fifteen. And I do not or be subsidised, you know a a I mean I think that's consistency. Well I I shall leave you to go through the questions for a few minutes. from from , erm I'm rather concerned about what the er, provence here is intending to do! Erm, I've worked for ten and a half years within this county of Clwyd as a social worker, regarded as an extensional and every year my employers er, who are based in London would like the county to know what were the remec recommended mileage rates for the reimbursel to a business car mileage? Now, if Clwyd or Gwynedd or any other county for that matter, within Wales or in England er, decided that in themselves that they would not implement the national recommendation er, then there duly would be all hell to pay, and rightly so! And certainly now that of course, ministers don't have a union unfortunately! Er No. they would allow me half now erm I've been looking at one particular church, one denomination er, which is the Methodist Church, although it has been said already here this afternoon, or this morning rather there are an overall erm joint style with Methodist and with United Reform Church and erm I have personally the Methodist of last year, last September where it gives and also erm, mileage recommendations. I'll be viewing the Methodist Church in quite a different way, but I think it's very important for us to be made aware of how they do it erm for example, if you have erm a a or or and I don't think any church has, are provided within that and gets alike. In addition to that you get depreciation of one thousand one hundred and forty four pound per year which, by my reckoning is ninety five pound a month in addition to that, as a Methodist Minister you get a standing charge of five hundred and twenty eight pound per year which is forty four pound pe er, per month and then you also through i in the year if you have a major repair needed on your car you get a hundred and eight pound now, if in fact, I had , I have a Vauxhall Nova, and let me take these figures as you are at twenty four P a mile, or twenty four point five P a mile and if that's all we are recommended, recommending, in other words, there's no lump sum at all er, that would mean that I would be getting forty nine pound but Methodist , this colleague in Llandudno if he did
Perhaps I shouldn't do this yet cos we haven't agreed it! But we have a new secretary. Er, if you agree it an and report. And I'm gonna ask Catherine to stand up so that you can all see who she is. We're involved in bringing things together, we're involved lots of things and At the back in black. there are lots of things At the back in black. committee, if you go downstairs you will see on the notice there a display of various things that we do, and on the windowsills there are various pieces of information free sheets that you can pick up and take away it will tell you about all sorts of issues! The way in which society imposes an agenda on us asks us questions in the churches. I think we're not too bad in doing that. But what we need to do as well, is to listen wha to what the churches are saying as they address these issues. And I want to erm ask you please if you have any comments about the work of The Old Church and Society Committee, the work we do fo fo for Synod and in the provence please make those comments known to Catherine or to your district representative! We need to hear from the local churches, from the district councils what's going on wha what the issues that concern you are so let's as well the ones that you see downstairs, we may already be addressing so have a look down there have a look at the, the information but if there are any issues you feel we ought to be addressing then please let us know so that we can put them on our agenda. That's all I want to say except to er, who, that Synod received the report of the Church and Society committee? I'm assuming you've read that report? Have you received it? Yeah. Yes. Does anybody wish to make any comments or ask any questions about this particular section? Don't think that's a lack of interest, I think it's matter of discipline! Oh Good! Okay then. . Thank you Peter and thank you Catherine erm we will give the view in due course. We move to the DP committee report which is on page seventeen. I'm gonna go very speedily and ask that we receive this report for debate. Good! Yes. Any comments on any section that is not pertaining to the resolution that was on page nineteen? Erm one from Mike Mike? and is that , I always feel threatened or paranoid I just want to make a point on on paragraph seven the rule in which to review the is that my understanding that review will be about the role and of the rule in which the . We will note that in a minute. Right. Er I just wanna refer to item one which is to do with the Synod . That's actually a different resolution. Is it? So we come back to that. Well Do you wannit Ah! ah! Right I would say Sorry! Sorry! Any other comments about any other questions not pertaining to the resolution there? We therefore come to resolution two in which to make it to paragraph one You're so gracious John! So it's just simply to er comment about the the future work that's gonna be done by Glanmole er, the work of investigation as I understand it at the end of that first section. Really, two things brought up investigation to consider the first is with trusts the very important piece of work that's done by trusts on behalf of the provence another provence may or may not know that there are the trusts have now been er, between trusts erm South Wales trusts erm Monmouthshire North Wales trust and Monmouthshire have now all been amalgamated into one and we're working through the implications of that. And we have had the trust secretary who has been working on our behalf voluntarily for some time now. I don't think anybody appreciates just how much, and I would like to put it on record, how much George does on behalf of the provence a very considerable piece of work! If you were part of the trust meetings and saw the degree of work that he does do regularly on our behalf it is quite considerable he doesn't do it for nothing! I can't imagine that George is gonna continuing doing that forever and it may well be that we'll be faced with a possibility of, of what we do in the future to have that piece of administration done will we be able to assume that it could done voluntary in the future? Or will it be part of the administrative task of the church? So I'd, I'd like that to be er considered er, when this whole investigation is carried on. And the second point too, is to say is to ask, at least to consider, whether then in some centres the work of the Synod ought to be trimmed down to match the particular work that is being done. I mean tha , is it all, you know, do we need all the time to have erm extra administrative help and in in, and in terms of which we've been talking about before, I know they might sound like two conflicting issues but one of the ways of ensuring we get the work done is do we trying too much at the Synod? Should we be thrusting more work down to districts and th , and they'll to do the job rather than always assume it should be done at this level? I think, I'm not going to encourage debate on that I think we've heard what Kenneth said particularly about the trusts the working done by the trust and would suggest that we ask Granville to take that on board as well and be within the presentations too. And I think some would be the less about the too much work perhaps being done by Synod and not enough by districts. I think it is something that we should encourage churches to talk about, the districts to talk about speaking of the district secretary I ! But there we are I I think we'll just take that on board like that. Erm, resolution that Synod appoints Jo , John as Synod clerk for a period of up to three years to commence at a date mutually convenient to him and the present Synod clerk. Those in favour of that resolution? Any against? Right, . I think erm we are not going to say thank you to Eileen now because she is not finishing as Synod clerk and that's a conscious decision. It may be that er, Eileen will be Synod clerk this time next year as well we don't know. Synod will divulge a degree of flex no, quite seriously, a degree of flexibility and we're grateful both to Eileen and er, to John for allowing that degree of flexibility to take place. And Synod will of course will be informed er, when, when Synod clerk has changed. But we're grateful to Eileen for what she is doing and will continue to do and we're